Can one evaluate Atma-Sphere amplifiers without a balanced pre?

Gopher · « **on:** 20 Oct 2010, 03:08 am »

I took delivery of an Atma-sphere S-30 today and while I see many of its merits (transparency, liquidity, detail) I'm not yet bowled over by its ability to convey emotion.

I've read quite a few recommendations that AS amps must be run with a balanced preamplifier to be appreciated, and I'm wondering how true this is. I've had my Eastern Electric Minimax pre with upgraded psu for like 5 years and, though there is a new EE pre coming out, I'm not eager to part with it.

FWIW 2 power tubes were killed in transit to me, so its operating with 4 power tubes per side instead of 5 per... this may be robbing some magic, though I understand its supposed to scale with the same signature.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Oct 2010, 03:11 am »

Ralph of Atma-sphere is fairly active on Audiogon, and I believe has popped up to comment occasionally too. He may be able to help...

Gopher · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Oct 2010, 03:16 am »

He actually posted in a common thread as me wherein someone asked about using an EE DAC as a preamp and seemed to indicate it doesn't matter: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/otl/messages/3/33764.html

But there does appear to be a significant number of users out there who say balanced is pretty much necessary.

TomS · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Oct 2010, 03:19 am »

Congrats on the amp. I don't think 4 vs 5 tubes will make a lot of difference if you're not pushing the limit of power. I've run my M60's with half removed and it still sounded great.

I've only used the balanced Atma-Sphere and Bryston BP-26 (not true balanced) preamps, but I think Mike Galusha may be using a SE tube preamp so you might ask him. It's definitely designed for balanced but I still would not expect a huge difference. Maybe just tell Ralph what you have and see what he thinks. FWIW, 25' IC cables made little to no difference in my balanced setup so I wouldn't look there for a lot of change. The V1 6SN7 gain tube DOES make a lot of difference, so if you can roll some in there you may be surprised.

zybar · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Oct 2010, 03:47 am »

Quote from: Gopher on 20 Oct 2010, 03:08 am

I took delivery of an Atma-sphere S-30 today and while I see many of its merits (transparency, liquidity, detail) I'm not yet bowled over by its ability to convey emotion.

I've read quite a few recommendations that AS amps must be run with a balanced preamplifier to be appreciated, and I'm wondering how true this is. I've had my Eastern Electric Minimax pre with upgraded psu for like 5 years and, though there is a new EE pre coming out, I'm not eager to part with it.

FWIW 2 power tubes were killed in transit to me, so its operating with 4 power tubes per side instead of 5 per... this may be robbing some magic, though I understand its supposed to scale with the same signature.

Interesting...

If I were to to say one thing that my MA-1's do is convey the emotion of the music better than any other amp I have owned. Of course that is very personal and what pushed my buttons might not push another person's.

What is it that isn't connecting with you? Many of the attributes you mentioned in a positive light help contribute to conveying the emotion for me.

What is the rest of your gear?

While Tom is correct in stating that the 6SN7 tube rolling will make an impact and can change the sound, it won't make a night and day difference.

I have used my Atma-Sphere amps with a single ended (Plinius M8) and a truly balanced (Parasound JC 2) preamp. When using the single deded preamp, I still used the balanced output. I have never used the RCA connections on the amp.

How long did you have the amp on? I know that mine sounds its best after it has been running for 30-60 mins.

Did you adjust the DC offset?

BTW, here are couple of items pulled from the Atma-Sphere FAQ (http://www.atma-sphere.com/support/faq.html):

Will the new amp/preamp work with my current preamp/amp?
Yes. Atma-Sphere equipment can be run either Balanced or Single-Ended. There is no need to modify your system to use our preamps or power amps. In fact, most of the reveiws on the power amplifiers were written with single-ended preamps.

What is the break-in period for my new equipment?
About 2-6 weeks depending on use.

Welcome to the Atma-Sphere club.

George

Gopher · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Oct 2010, 03:58 am »

I will be sure to roll the 6sn7s. In fact, I have a good friend with a now deceased Singlepower headamp who has been offering me a bunch of NOS tubes which up until now I have been unable to use. I'll start with his collection.

The amp has been on for about 3 hours now and is improving a good bit though I'm not quite floored yet. I'm moving from a very romantic, almost artificially emotional amp--a modified Dynaco ST-70, so after my time in el34 land my expectation of tube midrange magic errs to the lusher/warmer/breathier end,

I've struggled with my digital vs. analog for some time and had finally gotten to the point where my analog was (rightly) blowing my digital out of the water. My initial impressions now are not conclusive, but erring towards the binary.

My system is composed of:

Zu Soul Superfly (16ohm 101db efficicency)
Well Tempered Reference
Zu 103 Grade 2 Prime
Jasmine LP2.0SE (this gem has flown under the radar)
Squeezebox Touch (bolder modified)
Eastern Electric DAC (Siemens silver plate)
Eastern Electric Minimax Preamp (upgraded psu)
Wywires cables in all but one place.

I should note--this unit, despite being like a decade old may need "re" break-in! I forgot to mention the gentleman who I bought it from had it in a box, basically forgotten about for SIX YEARS before selling to me.

hmen · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Oct 2010, 04:59 am »

The difference between a singled ended and balanced pre with the Atma-Sphere amps is significant. I don't think you can really judge the amp until you've heard it fed by a balanced pre.

jtwrace · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Oct 2010, 11:50 am »

Quote from: Gopher on 20 Oct 2010, 03:08 am

I took delivery of an Atma-sphere S-30 today and while I see many of its merits (transparency, liquidity, detail) I'm not yet bowled over by its ability to convey emotion.

I've read quite a few recommendations that AS amps must be run with a balanced preamplifier to be appreciated, and I'm wondering how true this is. I've had my Eastern Electric Minimax pre with upgraded psu for like 5 years and, though there is a new EE pre coming out, I'm not eager to part with it.

FWIW 2 power tubes were killed in transit to me, so its operating with 4 power tubes per side instead of 5 per... this may be robbing some magic, though I understand its supposed to scale with the same signature.

Congrats on the purchase! I thought maybe you were the one that bought the used one off of audiogon recently. If it was you, that was a heck of a deal.

zybar · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Oct 2010, 12:04 pm »

Quote from: hmen on 20 Oct 2010, 04:59 am

The difference between a singled ended and balanced pre with the Atma-Sphere amps is significant. I don't think you can really judge the amp until you've heard it fed by a balanced pre.

I heard a big improvement going from the Plinius M8 to the Parasound JC 2, but I have no way of quantifying how much of that was due to one being single ended and the other truly balanced.

George

atmasphere · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 Oct 2010, 09:31 pm »

Quote from: Gopher on 20 Oct 2010, 03:58 am

I should note--this unit, despite being like a decade old may need "re" break-in! I forgot to mention the gentleman who I bought it from had it in a box, basically forgotten about for SIX YEARS before selling to me.

3 things. First, after sitting that long the caps will need to reform and to do that correctly will take a few weeks.
Second, you don't need a balanced preamp to hear the amp, but it helps (if for no other reason, IME, than that most balanced cables will sound better than most single-ended cables if driven from a balanced source). Most of the reviews of our stuff were done with single-ended preamps. Finally, if this is a ten-year-old amp, it would be a really good idea to get it updated. FWIW, with any of our stuff, if we update it to the latest level the warranty reactivates.

Gopher · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 Oct 2010, 11:46 pm »

Atmasphere (Ralph?),

Thank you for chiming in personally. I left it on over night and actually ended up going into the office late to get a little more listening in. Either I'm getting used to this presentation or its changing for the better. I will hold off on any real criticism until these caps get a few more weeks on them.

As for the balanced pre, I suppose I'll explore that eventually--I may look to Eastern Electric's upcoming preamp to fill that spot. Regarding cables, I'm using Wywires. I understand you will be demoing your products with them at the upcoming CES, so I don't suspect the balanced vs unbalanced interconnect quality is an issue in this instance.

If I got my hands on a NOS pair or two of 6SN7s what is the order you'd recommend changing them in?

The updating option is very interesting. I have a S-30 MKII, is that upgradeable to MK III.3 status? It looked like the chasis changed for the IIIs but it may be something I'm interested in down the line.

Fred

Will2 · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Oct 2010, 11:56 pm »

Quote from: Gopher on 20 Oct 2010, 11:46 pm

Atmasphere (Ralph?),

Thank you for chiming in personally. I left it on over night and actually ended up going into the office late to get a little more listening in. Either I'm getting used to this presentation or its changing for the better. I will hold off on any real criticism until these caps get a few more weeks on them.

As for the balanced pre, I suppose I'll explore that eventually--I may look to Eastern Electric's upcoming preamp to fill that spot. Regarding cables, I'm using Wywires. I understand you will be demoing your products with them at the upcoming CES, so I don't suspect the balanced vs unbalanced interconnect quality is an issue in this instance.

If I got my hands on a NOS pair or two of 6SN7s what is the order you'd recommend changing them in?

The updating option is very interesting. I have a S-30 MKII, is that upgradeable to MK III.3 status? It looked like the chasis changed for the IIIs but it may be something I'm interested in down the line.

Fred

Forgive me for "butting in" but on the updating option, check this link out http://www.atma-sphere.com/updates/index.html . If I read that correctly it looks like it would cost you about $750 for effectively a new amp with renewed warranty - pretty good deal to me.

Gopher · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 Oct 2010, 01:05 am »

Perhaps you understood better than I.

I could see the upgrade from MK II to MK III.1 and then another option from III.1 to III.3. I assumed it was 'split' like that because of the chassis change, but it would be very cool if I were mistaken.

If this could be brought to MKIII.3 status that reasonably, I could see doing it down the line when I get my expenses in order. Really need to cap my hobby spending for a while though.

Will2 · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 Oct 2010, 01:16 am »

Maybe I'm the one missing something Gopher, but I thought the latest version of the S30 was the Mk3.1. I didn't know there was a Mk3.3. Where do you see info on updates from Mk3.1 to Mk3.3?

Gopher · « **Reply #14 on:** 21 Oct 2010, 01:30 am »

No, I'm completely whacked... I don't know where the heck I even got III.3 from, it isn't listed at all... Doesn't seem to even exist.

jtwrace · « **Reply #15 on:** 21 Oct 2010, 01:31 am »

Quote from: Gopher on 21 Oct 2010, 01:30 am

No, I'm completely whacked... I don't know where the heck I even got III.3 from, it isn't listed at all...

atmasphere · « **Reply #16 on:** 21 Oct 2010, 02:53 pm »

Just to be clear about the update thing. When we update an amp or preamp, the idea is that we are updating **to the latest level**. So in this example we take a MkII.2 and are skipping MkIII, going directly to 3.1.

Gopher · « **Reply #17 on:** 21 Oct 2010, 04:54 pm »

Yep, its clear to me now--I brain farted.

The amplifier started sounding good last night after it had been on for three or four hours... like, really good. The presentation was the epitome of effortless and it even sounded great at lower levels than I normally listen to, which is very exciting to me as I have an infant in a relatively small space.

I'm perceiving a tiny bit of dryness to the presentation, but its not preventing it from being beautiful. I suspect rolling 6SN7s may really get me there. Quite exciting.

Berto · « **Reply #18 on:** 21 Oct 2010, 07:10 pm »

Bout 6months ago I went from a wamer, lusher audio aero captiole tube amp to Atma MA-1s. I too was not used to this new uncolored crystal clear sound either at first

I did A/B my BENT TAP-X (amazing passive pre) single ended using cheaper PBJ kimber rca's, then went direct from source to amps via cheap balanced cables, since my ma-1s have vol control. I felt there was a slight uptick in sound quality goin direct and bal. If not for wanting to get a grand to sell the BENT pre. I prob would of never heard any loss of SQ

IMO the transparency of these amps will not only reveal all the good but all the bad as well(AC noise, rca cable noise, etc). I upgraded 6SN7 tubes to Black Treasure CV-181s that was real nice upgrade. I went to better power cords and bybee conditioner and on every upgrade these amps just got better and better to where now the emotion is breathtaking.

I need a Vcap upgrade and from 3 to 3.1 upgrade soon, but would have to go away before I part with them

mgalusha · « **Reply #19 on:** 21 Oct 2010, 09:00 pm »

My preamp has impedance balanced outputs but not differential. I am quite happy with the results. That said I do have plans to rework my pre to have full differential outputs one of these days.

To answer JakeJ's question, I have a pair of Zero's but with my speakers (GedLee Abbeys) they sound better without them.

Oh, the amps are M-60's.

mike