[drphoto]

Ok, as many of you know, I jumped back into vinyl w/ a new Rega P3-24 and Denon DL-160. And as posted before, I'm happy w/ the tone, bass slam (w/ the Mapletree cones,maple plank and isoblocks) and PRAT. Plus, it does have that really natural midrange that bring people back to vinyl.

Where it falls down, is that the soundstage is pretty 2D. Nice and wide, but not much depth. I don't get that cool holographic effect I get w/ my better digital recordings, like the superb Pink Floyd's "Pulse".

Is this a fault of the Denon? Or is this just what you get w/ an entry level deck?

[TONEPUB]

Grab a Groovetracer subplatter and step up to a better cart.  If you want more of a holographic effect, consider a Shelter 501 II, or the Lyra Dorian.  I've had excellent luck on my P3 and P25.

[Charles Calkins]

Frank Van Alstine's longhorn Grado Gold cartridge beats the crap out of the denon DL-160. I have both of them and I have tried them out on a Rega P3-24. I'm keeping the Longhorn!!. And the Rega P3-24.  But!! The Longhorn Grado Gold is twice the price of the Denon DL-160.

                                             Cheers
                                             Charlie

[guest4954]

Did you play around already with the tracking weight/VTA /raking angle whatever you want to call it?
In my experience with the 160 is that it is very much subject to optimizing/balancing 3D soundstage and full-frequency range. Take care that you adapt the tracking weight (keep it constant) when you alter the angle/height.

My 2cts

Michiel

[bacobits1]

I find that most of the dissatisfaction of vinyl comes from the crappy recording.
Some sound superb and others are just junk. Too bad, some of that junk is great music.

D

[Wayner]

Sometimes, playing with speaker position/toe-in will have a big influence on the sound of vinyl. Don't always suspect the rig itself, but the entire chain. I have seen modest speaker changes reap great changes in soundstage and depth.

Wayner

[drphoto]

I tried a Grado and had the hum issue. I simply can't shell out $1100 for the Shelter. I'll try playing w/ the tracking weight as suggested.

[Letitroll98]

Did you play around already with the tracking weight/VTA /raking angle whatever you want to call it?
In my experience with the 160 is that it is very much subject to optimizing/balancing 3D soundstage and full-frequency range. Take care that you adapt the tracking weight (keep it constant) when you alter the angle/height.

My 2cts

Michiel

+1 on this with some caveats.  I think Michiel is trying to say it correctly in that adjusting the tracking force can change the VTA of the cartridge and the resultant SRA of the stylus.  And the Denon is very sensitive to proper setup.  But as we know, fine adjustment of the VTA is problematic on Rega arms.  So concentrate on what you can alter, tracking force.  I found if you go up and down the 1.6 to 1.9 gr scale, you will find a point where it just locks in, it won't be hard to hear.

Additionally, cartridge loading for the DL 160 is hotly debated.  I think it's somewhat system and preference driven, but I and others found 1K ohm to be ideal for the cart.  Others like 7.5-27k, some like the recommended 47k.  With the medium low internal inductance of the DL 160 loading won't affect frequency response like it will a MM, but it can change dynamics and soundstage, the lower you go, more depth, less width, less dynamics, less treble to some extent.  Best of luck.   

[Wayner]

Adjusting the tracking weight will have almost no effect on SRA. Your talking about the cartridge suspension changing by a few thousands of an inch, which equates to about (non-calculated) .0000nothing in SRA angle (it takes 4mm rise in VTA to change the SRA by 1 degree, so 1mm is a change of .25 degrees and changing the VTF ain't gonna do it.

Wayner

[Letitroll98]

Perhaps I didn't present it correctly while trying to both answer Michiel's post and make my point, apologies.  The main thrust is that changing the VTF on the Denon DL 160 changes the sound immensely, as it does with many cartridges.  I'm sure this has more to do with vertical compliance and centering the coils in the gap than changing the SRA.  As the OP has a Rega arm, nothing but gross changes in VTA using shims are presently available to him unless he has recently purchased the VTAF he was looking at.  So he should look at adjusting VTF and changing the loading to help with his problem, which is what I was trying to do.  Is that clear and precise enough for your standards sir? 

[Wayner]

Well, then put the VTF on Denon's recommended and be done with it. I have a Rega RB300 and have raised the ass end 7/16" and it did almost nothing to change the sound.

I have no standards, other then experience (40+ years) and I know what you have suggested will not change any sound stage or depth. Been there, done that.

P.S. Not attacking you, only your point.

Wayner

[guest4954]

I started off playing some odd 25 years ago with a Thorens TD-115 and a Denon DL160. The TD-115 arm was supplied with spacers for the Cartridge end (1-5 mm differnce there was possible). Then I started playing around without the theoretical knowledge. Just my ears and my amazement.
I think that the discussion on the effect of the angle itself are not an issue, it is the change in VTF that makes things sing. Strange enough without the height variation it does not work.

Nowadays I still use the 160 as a tester for knew DIY Phono Amps. In regular use I have a DL-110, vd Hull Frog and a ZYX 10. Used in respectively at this moment in SME 3012, MG-1 and Project-9".

The denons are most affected by changes in height/weight. Probably due to the needle shape and the suspension.

I have had a RB250 with easy adjustable height ring, it worked with most cartridges, but not at best with the Denon's (tone arm mass?)

I still would suggest start playing and adjusting there is most of the time room for improvement with the combination you have.

My 2-cts
Michiel

[drphoto]

Ok, I fooled around w/ tracking weight last night, both increasing and decreasing. I think it does sound better with less weight. I'm not sure where I actually ended up. Says around 1.0 g on the dial. I was having a few drinks at the time, and decided I didn't want to get out the Shure gauge and risk bunging up the stylus. I'll give it another listen tonight and see if I still feel that way. If so, I'll take a measurement and report back. I think I was at around 1.8 g originally. (using the 2mm shim)

As always, I appreciate the advice.

BTW: I stlll like this deck/cart. I think it sounds very nice for the money. As I've said, I got into to this more out of nostalgia than a chase for better sound. However, I've been more than pleased at how well it works.