[ricardojoa]

In your opinion, what makes a speaker to sound large and what makes a speaker to sound small? Does a floostander always give you the impression of large speaker sounding over bookshelf? Do the numbers of drivers and size have any impact? Does midbass has any thing to do with it? I have an altec lansing floostander with dual 8", a mid, a tweeter and  three way sealed cabinet with FR 60hz-18khz versus Ascend Acoustics Sierra FR 44hz-22khz 2 way ported, yet the floorstander does sounds like a large speaker where the sierra sounds like a small speaker. The floorstander also have better soundstage horizontaly and vertically, it also blends better in the room.
So what are your opinions?

Thanks

[Stu Pitt]

Not sure what makes speakers sound as big or small as they do.  I've heard big speakers sound big, and I've heard them sound like two boxes in a room that all sound came directly out of them.  Same can be said for small speakers.

So in my expert (if you fall for that one) opinion, what makes a speaker sound big or small is the soundstage size - height, width, and depth.  Yeah, I'm a master of the obvious.  The room and placement has a lot to do with this.

My Audio Physic Yara Evolution bookshelves sound bigger than any speaker I've ever had in my home.  Not even close.  Totem Arros pull this off very well too (I haven't owned them).  The Naim Ovator S600s are a huge speaker, and they sound huge too.  Not so much soundstage depth, but huge every way else.

[Tyson]

I find that there is no replacement for displacement.  Not just in the bass, but in the mids as well.  If you have a very dynamic mid driver with a large surface area that is fairly efficient, it gives the impression of "bigness" and a certain effortless quality.  Music just lives and breathes more.  And there's a lot of ambient information carried in the mid to low bass, so having that as a foundation really lets a speaker sound "big".  Of course, if a speaker can reproduce low bass credibly then it usually IS big.

[cujobob]

To me, it's about compression.  Lack of it = big, compression = small

[JLM]

Another small speaker that sounds big is the Fritz Carbon 7.

IME an abundance of power and wide dispersion helps too.

Dipoles, bipoles, and omni-directional speakers always sound big.

[Letitroll98]

I have to agree that dynamics is what makes a speaker sound big.  There are several ways to make a speaker sound dynamic, large radiating area, large box, less damping in the box, higher Q drivers, etc.  Smaller speakers can sound very dynamic, but you are always trading off something.  Usually efficiency is the least detrimental to sound quality, then you just need to add more amp.  Box speakers all always trading something to get something, making the sum of those trades sound wonderful is the art.  So if you are focusing on just a big sounding speaker, you may be missing something important along the way.

[Chromisdesigns]

I find that there is no replacement for displacement.  Not just in the bass, but in the mids as well.  If you have a very dynamic mid driver with a large surface area that is fairly efficient, it gives the impression of "bigness" and a certain effortless quality.  Music just lives and breathes more.  And there's a lot of ambient information carried in the mid to low bass, so having that as a foundation really lets a speaker sound "big".  Of course, if a speaker can reproduce low bass credibly then it usually IS big.

My experience jibes with yours.  "Accuracy" is one thing -- small speakers can be very "accurate" both as measured and subjectively, but still not exhibit the same presence as a larger system.  The most "lifelike" speakers I ever heard for acoustic music were a pair of HUGE speaker systems from a now-defunct DC area maker, the brand name was Ezekial.  It really was like having the performers sitting in your living room.  The big Maggies can be that way, too.  The Zekes were about the size of a Marshall double stack (each speaker).  They were being driven by a pair of Hafler 220's and a Dynaco tube preamp, with vinyl source.  This was back in the mid '70s.

I tried several times to convince the owner of the Zekes to sell them to me, but could never convince her.  Of course, you need a big room for them to really sing, just like the Maggies.

[*Scotty*]

I agree with Tyson, driver area is very helpful when it comes to creating a large sound-stage and life-sized images. I am particularly partial to using MTM and WMTMW designs to achieve this goal.
 When you double the drivers you can realize a 6dB increase in efficiency. You also the cut driver excursion in half and and you can have as much as a 75% reduction in distortion as a benefit. Half the power compression is also a dividend one gets from doubling the drivers and dividing the power used over two voice coils.
 For once physics works with you instead of against you in this hobby.
Scotty

[doug s.]

scotty, i am not sure how doubling the drivers gets you a 6db efficiency increase.  standard rule of thumb is doubling power nets 3db, so, assuming the same power, doubling drivers would equate to that, and you get an additional 3db.

regarding large vs small speaker, implementation is everything.  soundstaging can be more easily achieved with a smaller speaker, and this can effect the total presentation, as much as actual dynamics.  and, i love dynamics, which is why i am presently using ~100db-efficient oris horn based speakers.     but anyone who ever heard the positively tiny proac tablette 8 reference signatures in the big 26x38x8.5 room i had them in, was amazed at what life-like dynamic sound they could produce.  of course, they had to be crossed over to subs at 24db/octave at 80hz.  on their own, they fall apart with bombastic bass even in smaller rooms.  but for 95% of music, they are really amazing, even w/o subs...  and, we're talking 4.5" woofer, cabinet 10.5"h x 6"w x9"d

doug s.

[doug s.]

Doug,

You gain 3db from using two of them and you can gain as much as 3db more depending on your amp and if it doubles power into half the impedance (this applies mostly to 8 ohm drivers wired in parallel).

Lin

yes, if you decrease ohms, from, say 8 to 4, and your amp can double its output, no dobut this will give you more power.    but at any given wattage, the two drivers combined will give 3db more output...  what you are talking about is ultimate max spl.  and, this will still be determined by whether your amp can output the max the speakers can handle.  either way, i still see only 3db max for doubling drivers, as long as your amp is up to it in either case...

doug s.

[*Scotty*]

Doug it doesn't matter at what SPL the speaker is playing at, it always pulls twice the current from the amp,which means it plays 3dB louder regardless of the volume setting.
 It actually is an almost free lunch that is possible if your SS amp behaves as a pure voltage source to 4 ohms or a little below. A tube amp on the other hand behaves like a current source and must be matched to the load via it's output transformers and does not double it's current output as the load's resistance falls. 
Scotty

[doug s.]

Doug it doesn't matter at what SPL the speaker is playing at, it always pulls twice the current from the amp,which means it plays 3dB louder regardless of the volume setting.
 It actually is an almost free lunch that is possible if your SS amp behaves as a pure voltage source to 4 ohms or a little below. A tube amp on the other hand behaves like a current source and must be matched to the load via it's output transformers and does not double it's current output as the load's resistance falls. 
Scotty

it sounds like you are talking about gain of the system.  but, bottom line is a driver rated at, say, 70w, will only be able to handle 70w and play at its max db level, regardless of whether it's wired at 8 ohm, or paralleled w/another driver so it's operating at 4 ohms.  your amp may have more headroom if it doubles its output into lower impedance, but you still won't be able to drive the speakers w/any more than 70w, which will net you a 3db gain, w/two of them instead of one.  or, are you saying the speakers will somehow be able to now handle 140w?

doug s.

[doug s.]

if you had a driver that was rated at 140w, and your amp was only 70w into 8 ohms, but 140w into 4 ohms, then this scenario would give you 6db of extra spl, as you would be increasing the power of the amp by running the drivers in parallel, so the amp would see the 4 ohm load, enough for a 3db gain; as well as getting 3db from doubling the drivers.  but, if your amp was already 140wpc, then you're only gonna get an extra 3db of gain from doubling the driver count...

doug s.

[JohnR]

Efficiency (SPL for a given number of watts input) will increase by 3 dB. Sensitivity (SPL for a given voltage input) will increase by 6 dB. That's provided the output from the two drivers is in phase at all frequencies.

[doug s.]

Efficiency (SPL for a given number of watts input) will increase by 3 dB. Sensitivity (SPL for a given voltage input) will increase by 6 dB. That's provided the output from the two drivers is in phase at all frequencies.

agreed.  which is what i was saying all along - sensitivity will increase, as well as spl.  but max spl increase will still be only 3db, assuming you have enough gain to drive the drivers to full output. 

what happens when you want to double a 4ohm driver, so you run two in series at 8 ohms?  you will lose sensitivity, but you will still get 3db spl increase, assuming you have enough gain to drive the drivers to full output.   

i am not "microscoping" scotty's statement, not only is it not spot on, it is not correct.  unless someone can show me that you actually change a driver's wattage rating when you run them in parallel (or in series).

ymmv,

doug s.

[*Scotty*]

Doug 1+1=2.  In other-words, if you have two 70watt drivers you can now handle 140 watts of peak power.
 You have gained 3dB from the acoustic coupling of the two drivers cone area. The 3dB from doubling the current drawn from the amplifier is also present,giving you a total of 6dB. All of this occurs irregardless of the playback volume chosen.
Scotty
 

[roscoeiii]

At my first AKFest, I was most blown away by some of the fantastic sound that came out of the small monitor speakers on display. The Fritz Carbon 7s, Audio Note AN-E and the Harbeth BBC monitors all gob-smacked me. But as others mentioned, these monitors usually require some significant power. Significant to me at least, since I am running full-range drivers that 5-10W amps drive just fine...

[doug s.]

Doug 1+1=2.  In other-words, if you have two 70watt drivers you can now handle 140 watts of peak power.
 You have gained 3dB from the acoustic coupling of the two drivers cone area. The 3dB from doubling the current drawn from the amplifier is also present,giving you a total of 6dB. All of this occurs irregardless of the playback volume chosen.
Scotty

you will NEVER get max 6db of spl increase, unless EACH driver can now handle 140w peak instead of 70w peak.  doubling the current from the amp yust means you will get there faster  - ie: your preamp may not need to be turned up as much, because your amp is putting out more current for any given preamp output level.  but, try to get more than 3db max spl out of the dual-driver speakers vs the single-driver speaker still means exceeding the 70w rating of each driver, and you will blow your speakers...

now, as i said before, if your amp was rated at 35w peak into 8 ohms, and it's now putting out 70w into 4 ohms, then you DO get 6db increase, because you are now getting 3db additional from two drivers AND 3db additional from doubling the power your speakers are getting.  but, you could have gotten 3 of those extra db by using a more powerful amp, (ie: 70wpc into 8 ohms), in the first place.

yes, 1+1=2, which is exactly my point - 1+1 does not equal 4!   if "1" is the max output you can get from a given driver, you're never gonna get more than "2" total from using two of them, regardless of how much additional current you throw at them.

which is why i brought up the subject of using two 4 ohm drivers in series, which would present an 8 ohm load to a typical s/s amp that doubles power when load is halved.  you will still get a 3db max spl gain, even tho the sensitivity is halved - providing your amplifier has enough power.

doug s.

[Letitroll98]

If you have a sensitivity of of, say 90db per 1 watt at 1 meter, and apply 100 watts of power, the loudness at 1 meter would be 110db.  If you add another speaker under the same ideal free air conditions, the calculated loudness is 113db, so you add three decibels of sensitivity by adding a speaker, ignoring all other factors.  If the speakers are wired in parallel and the amp is a constant voltage source, you double the power to each speaker resulting in a loudness of 116db at 1 meter, a special condition theoretical 6db gain.

In real world conditions this cannot be achieved because you have speakers in enclosures which are inside of rooms, driven by not completely perfect voltage source amps.  All of this is kind of "how many angels on the head of pin" type arguments that go nowhere so perhaps it would be best to get back to the more general topic of large vs small sounding speakers.   

[doug s.]

If you have a sensitivity of of, say 90db per 1 watt at 1 meter, and apply 100 watts of power, the loudness at 1 meter would be 110db.  If you add another speaker under the same ideal free air conditions, the calculated loudness is 113db, so you add three decibels of sensitivity by adding a speaker, ignoring all other factors.  If the speakers are wired in parallel and the amp is a constant voltage source, you double the power to each speaker resulting in a loudness of 116db at 1 meter, a special condition theoretical 6db gain.

absolutely.  i am not arguing this point.  but, what if the speaker's max spl is 113db?  what if it can only handle 100w?  you won't get to 116db w/o damaging the speaker.  as long as you already have enough power, adding a second driver to a one driver set up will never get you more than a 3db max spl increase.  and, if you have enough power, adding a second driver in series, which HALVES the power, will still gain you an additional 3db.

it's baffling to me why there is any confusion about this.

doug s.