Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables

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BeatleFred

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Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« on: 3 Mar 2004, 01:56 am »
Are any other Odyssey owners here using these cables?

Klaus- can you fill me in on what special properties these cable have?  Is there anything remarkable about the (very thin) wires under the blue tubing cover that should make it worth its approx $150 price/10 ft/pr.   ???

I tried to read some reviews & information about them Online but didnt see much (in English) so far.

Thanks,

Fred.

Sonny

Nothing Special...
« Reply #1 on: 3 Mar 2004, 04:30 am »
well, besides being extra thick, there's two wires, a pair for hot and one for cold...and a weave for the ground.  Its quite normal, but sure sounds good...I have it all, i/c, and speaker cables.
they are worth it considering how much other cables are in the industry...
Sonny

rosconey

Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #2 on: 3 Mar 2004, 01:25 pm »
i have a pair i bought from a ac member-
well built like odyssey stuff-
i never had expensive cables before these so i cant comment on sound against other wires-i used 12 from home depot, and they are better than them-lol

Eduardo AAVM

Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #3 on: 3 Mar 2004, 02:45 pm »
I use 'em with the Extremes... Very good cables

This was a "strange review" I grabbed years ago,it is now offline so good thing I saved it.

http://www.odysseyaudiomx.com/groneberg-mx/Groneberg-installation/

This one is in spanish it was in the web site of a dealer called Lyric in Spain, I do not know on what magazine appeared originally.

http://www.odysseyaudiomx.com/groneberg-mx/AAVM-groneberg-lyric.htm

Later I'll try to upload some more...

byteme

Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #4 on: 3 Mar 2004, 06:49 pm »
I was able to find a run of TS-Premium speaker cables and a pair of TS-premium IC's.  I had been using Zu Warmouth and Wax.  The Groneberg killed the Zu stuff, which I REALLY liked.  My only regret?  I didn't buy the 3 TS-premium power cords the guy had as well.

The Quattro, according to Klaus, will get you 85% of the way there for about 1/2 the price of the TS-premium, although both can be gotten from him.

I did post a breif review in this forum a couple months ago I believe.  Oh, and remember, it's all about the synergy!

BeatleFred

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Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #5 on: 4 Mar 2004, 12:26 am »
Sonny- extra thick?  What is extra thick, you mean the blue tube?  Inside that tube are a pair of rather thin red wires soldered together at the tip and ditto for the black wires. And that is what the current is flowing thru on the way to the speakers, those thin wires, not the thick blue tube covering. Thus, my curiosity to know what makes the cables sound supposedly so great and the price tag for those thin red/black wires.

gmeades

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Why are Gronebergs "special"...?
« Reply #6 on: 4 Mar 2004, 07:40 am »
Hi BeatleFred,

I don't think anyone can tell you WHY the Gronebergs sound the way they do, and from your asking what makes them "special", it sounds like you're being cynical due to some bias you seem to have about the construction...  

Frankly, I don't honestly think anyone CARES about the wires being thin, or that they're going for the whopping sum of $150...  what I believe others, including myself do care about is the sound they impart to ones system...

Personally, I had bought into the advertising and reviews on so many IC's it wasn't funny, and I spent a lot of money on wires which did not give me a full, balanced, transparent, satisfying sound with excellent high end extension, incredible imaging and 3 dimensionality, and a very deep bass where each note had weight to it until I tried a pair of Gronebergs... THAT is what makes them so special...  

In my experience I have had somewhere over two dozen different makes and models of IC's in my system, and sure, I continued trying others even after I'd found the Gronebergs, but none has produced the realism the Gronebergs produce in the position between my pre and my mono's as the Gronebergs did, and none has produced the palpable sense of presence of the images appearing on my soundstage as the Gronebergs...  the fact they can do this with two thin wires is most likely what helps in keeping the price low, but it certainly does not affect the quality or their ability to outperform other IC's going for many times their cost in the slightest.  

If you're truly interested in the physics behind the design, I would suggest you do some searched on "skin effect" and look into some other info on "litz" wire.  I came across some excellent white papers which explained why a thin wire is sonically superior in certain applications when I searched for information on the subject myself a few years ago, and you will find there's plenty of find plenty of documentation available from engineers, DIY sites, reviews on audioasylum and numerous other sources, which will explain that it does not require a large diameter wire to produce exceptional sound, and in fact a large wire guage in many cases produces an inferior result.

There are many factors which affect the sound you hear from a set of wires, including not only the conductors themselves, but also the insulation material, the brand of connector used, the solder, the number of twists in the wire and so on.  In time you'll find it's best to let your ears be your judge, and not to be so concerned with the cost versus construction aspects.  I have had IC's ranging from $80 up to $1,000 in my system, and those Gronebergs with those two little red wires have blown away the competition in every case, specifically in the position I previously mentioned in my system.

I recently auditioned some other IC's that numerous people have posted as being incredibly transparent, detailed and 3 dimensional...  the Gronebergs were superior to them... why...? Frankly I don't care... they simply sound better... producing a presence and accuracy of Timbre unmatched by anything else in my system.  After exchanging several emails, I had a conversation with the manufacturer of these other IC's a short time ago and explained to him directly what his wires were not giving me compared to the Gronebergs.  He was thankful for the information I provided him with and understood I had given his IC's a fair evaluation comparing them for nearly two weeks on numerous source material ranging from symphonic, to fusion, to heavy progressive metal...
each of which the Gronebergs had not trouble handling at all, and provided clearly superior sonic performance with...

Will I keep searching...? of course... that's the nature of an audiophile...  "you never know" and "what if?" are an audiophiles catchphrases... am I completely satisfied...? that's not possible with people who are obsessive as we as audiophiles are... do I think $150 is too much to spend for what you get...?  If you're looking at sonic value, you've really got to be kidding...  you are kidding, aren't you...  What other IC's could you have possibly compared your Gronebergs to, and what in the world kind of equipment do you have if you're not kidding...

Perhaps you'd be happier in the DIY world, attempting to get world class sound from $20  - $50 in parts, and trying to convince yourself that what you've got is superior to anything else out there... if that's your mindset, you will find a lot of recipes for making cheaper wires available on audio asylum and other places on the web... but if you're interested in finding what sounds best in your system, regardless of what the cost factor is, use your ears and forget about construction techniques and why you paid so much for wires that are so thin... if you take apart every wire out there, you'll be dissatisfied with an incredible number of wires that don't meet your standards for value... if however, you use your ears alone and nevermind pulling every connector apart to see how it's made, you'll find you'll have to do a LOT of searching and spend a LOT more money in most cases to come close to the sound a well-broken-in pair of Gronebergs will impart to your soundstage...

byteme

Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #7 on: 4 Mar 2004, 02:53 pm »
If you want big-ass thick then go with the TS-Premium.  You can see them here - http://www.groneberg.com/ -  be sure to check out the price link too, 240 Euro for 1M speakercable, 348 Euro for the IC's.  Of course, much better pricing through Klaus.  You can judge how thick they are by looking at the connector (WBT locking type) on the IC's.  Rest assured it's not just the blue packaging that makes them that thick!

Eduardo AAVM

Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #8 on: 4 Mar 2004, 02:59 pm »
Other situation is that I do not know many cables with patented design... (maybe my mistake)

In Mexico I have been lucky tomanage Gronebergaside and along Odyssey, and it is getting a strong recognition here, of course Mexico's market is not as wide as the one in US, but what sounds good sounds good...

Harmon

Groneberg Quattro Reference IC's
« Reply #9 on: 4 Mar 2004, 03:37 pm »
I am selling a pair of Groneberg Quattro Reference IC's for $60.00 in excellent condition if anyone is interested.

Harmon

Groneberg Quattro Reference IC's
« Reply #10 on: 4 Mar 2004, 03:38 pm »
I am selling a pair of 1 meter Groneberg Quattro Reference IC's for $60.00 in excellent condition if anyone is interested.

amandarae

Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #11 on: 4 Mar 2004, 06:13 pm »
BeatleFred,

Here's some post I made way back regarding Groneberg Cables.  Hope you can get some impression out of it....

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=373&highlight=

and

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=3089&highlight=


cheers.....

BeatleFred

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Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #12 on: 5 Mar 2004, 02:02 am »
My question was about the Gronberg speaker cables, not the interconnects, but thats ok, as the issue applies to ic's as well. (And power conditioners too)

As for my being "cynical",  well, I did NOT state anywhere in my message that I disliked the speaker cables :nono:

Its more a matter of curiosity. Perhaps YOU dont care how much money you spend as long as your ears think what youre hearing sounds good from a hi fi sound quality perspective, and YOU might not care to know why it sounds the way it does, but from my viewpoint, if I'm going to be shelling out some decent bucks, then I feel I am entitled to some explanation by the manufacture or sales representative, etc..., about what makes their product capable of doing what they claim it does.

I didnt say I needed to have a thesis paper-length explanation given to me with never-ending dry technical analysis on the subject.  I simply want to know a little bit of information about the those thin wires inside the blue tube of the Groneberg Quattro's.  Is there anything unique about those wires that Groneberg uses that make it superior to a majority of other wires? And what properties distinguish those Groneberg wires from other manufacturers' wires that allegedly dont sound as good? Is it that demanding of work to put some thin wires in a tube and apply a dab of solder such that the cable should sell for the price it does??

In other words,  everyone says Groneberg Quattro's are amazing speaker cables.  OK, fine.  Then please give me a basic overview of how those thin wires inside the blue tube are able to sound that amazing. Isnt is just ordinary wire thats soldered to a connector at the tip? Or is there more to it than that?

And as I mightve mentioned in another post,  if cables are so important on the listening end of the Audio spectrum, then want about at the Source of where music is created- the Recording Studio - should all those cables going from the mixer to the recorder be Groneberg ic's for the optimum sound quality?  Should Eric Clapton upgrade the power cord on his guitar amplifier?  If he isnt concerned in the least about it, then why should the listener at home feel compelled to remove the same type of cord from his stereo amplifier, cd player, or whatever, and "upgrade" it so that Eric's guitar sound from the studio will sound better on the listener's speakers ?????

As for Soundstage - that is a quality that comes primarily from loudspeakers, not cables. If I had $2000 or $3000 to spend, I think it makes sense to allocate those funds to acquiring a really good pair of speakers that already have exceptional Soundstage ability, rather than to expect it to come from the cables.

Ditto the cd player.  You can get a top rated cd player for less than $300 (such as a NAD C521i to use as one example).  It seems a bit of a stretch to have to attach cables to it that cost like, 3 or 4x the price of the cd player itself in order to get what is claimed to be audiophile sound quality.

B/F

pugs

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Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #13 on: 5 Mar 2004, 04:18 am »
IMO, cables are for tuning.  They all have a sonic signiture that may or may not work with your components.  Good cables allow you to get the most out of your gear.

What equipment do you have?  Is it high end.  What makes you think that it's so special?  What is it about it, that made you spend good money on it?  If you understand that, I would think you would understand why quality cables are important.  If your equipment is crap, don't even bother with good cables.

I use Groneberg ICs.  First, I had them between my cd (Cary) and pre(Tempest) then pre--> amp (Stratos Monos).  But, through experimentation, I prefer my Silver Audio 4.0 between CD and pre, and Gronebergs between pre and amp.

I imagine what makes them so good is that they use high quality OFC, use a high quality dielectric, have good sheilding, and have very nice connectors.  I'm not sure how they're wound, but the geometry of how the wires are twisted is supposed to be important.

You should call Klaus.  He'll give you straight answers, and will let you try them for 30 days.

BeatleFred

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Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #14 on: 5 Mar 2004, 05:14 am »
My main speakers are Infinity Renaissance 90's- they were made in the early-mid 90's before Infinity fully transformed into Harman as they are now. The Ren 90's are SUPERB speakers with OUTSTANDING imaging & soundstage- you can read Owner reviews for yourself on audioreview, and you'll notice that all the reviews are 5 stars (just like the Stratos).

As for amps, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I once owned a Stratos but sold it. I'm more into vintage 70's hi fi amps, my main amps are the Sansui BA-5000 which is a tremendous amplifier- its 300 Watts and weighs well over 100 pounds (made 1975-77/78). Its EXTREMELY powerful, as is my other main amp, a Sansui B-2301 (from 1986), also 300W, and a true audiophile amp by Sansui. Preamps are matching Sansui CA-3000 and C-2301.

AS for the Groneberg's- I dont need to try them from Klaus- because I ALREADY own them. Yes, they sound good, I never said they DIDNT.  However,  the connectors on mine are pin-type connectors because I use them alot when I switch between all the amps in my collection, and the pin connectors will fit into both binding post holes and spring clip terminals.  But those pin connectors are delicate and eventually they can break off- which is what happended to me.  I think just soldering the end is stronger than the using the pins. Anyway, its when the pins broke off that I examined the cables and noticed the thin wires inside the blue tubing-thus my now asking- whats so special about those thin wires that it costs $150??

As for cables making sound quality improvements- it still hasnt been answered as to why these things are apparently not a concern in the recording studio- using the logic by all those believers in the magical properties of cables, then the studio is seriously degrading their sound quality if they dont use high quality ic's, power cords etc... - and my point is if they dont use them at the source, then whats the point to spend the $$ to use them at the listening end- to listen to that music at home that was created in the studio on equipment that DOESNT use those ic's, cords. etc ??


B/F

Eric

Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #15 on: 5 Mar 2004, 03:53 pm »
Is this Beatle Fred from Audio Karma?

BeatleFred

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Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #16 on: 6 Mar 2004, 03:21 am »
Affirmative 8)

Captain Humble

Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #17 on: 6 Mar 2004, 09:56 am »
All quotes listed are credited to BeatleFred:
Quote
As for Soundstage - that is a quality that comes primarily from loudspeakers, not cables. If I had $2000 or $3000 to spend, I think it makes sense to allocate those funds to acquiring a really good pair of speakers that already have exceptional Soundstage ability, rather than to expect it to come from the cables.
I agree and would add that the synergy between the amp, the speakers and the room itself would be the greatest contributing factors to achieving a realistic soundstage.
Quote
And as I mightve mentioned in another post, if cables are so important on the listening end of the Audio spectrum, then want about at the Source of where music is created- the Recording Studio - should all those cables going from the mixer to the recorder be Groneberg ic's for the optimum sound quality?
I've never heard anyone say that Groneberg ICs were the alpha & omega of optimum sound quality.  What I have heard is that they are a great value when paired with the right equipment.  Having said that, the answer to your question is a resounding YES.  High end cables and ICs artfully matched to the equipment is critical or recording studios wouldn't pop for the investment.
Quote
As for cables making sound quality improvements- it still hasnt been answered as to why these things are apparently not a concern in the recording studio- using the logic by all those believers in the magical properties of cables, then the studio is seriously degrading their sound quality if they dont use high quality ic's, power cords etc... - and my point is if they dont use them at the source, then whats the point to spend the $$ to use them at the listening end- to listen to that music at home that was created in the studio on equipment that DOESNT use those ic's, cords. etc ??
Not a concern in the recording studio??? I submit that if the recording studio you're contracting isn't concerned about the cable and ICs they're using pack up your gear and come to Dallas because your working with amatures.  My point is a good studio does care and does use high end cable & ICs.  We've all heard high quality recordings as well as bad ones.  I'm not saying that cable is the only difference, it's just part of the equation.

Here's a link to a picture I just put up in the gallery featuring a mixing session we did at Maxmedia in Dallas.  Please notice the thick heavy blue cable on the floor under the console on the right hand side.  I've seen various brands and configurations but I haven't seen one cheapo cable in the entire building.  As my Cajun friends say that stuff is serious heavy.

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=2267

For the complete gallery:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=240

One last point.  Regardless of the equipment used to produce the CD the purpose of the playback equipment is to reproduce the recording as acurately as possible.  That being the case why wouldn't I employ the best equipment and cable I can afford to do that task regardless of what the studio used?

BeatleFred

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Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #18 on: 6 Mar 2004, 09:07 pm »
:nono:

I havent personally inspected the inside of many recording studios in my area. Most studios that advertise in the paper or Online will tell you what recording equipment they have (specific models of analog and digital recorders and so forth), I dont see as much attention placed on the cables they use to interconnect all that equipment.

And thats just my point - there can be ALOT of equipment in a studio- recorders, mixing consoles, keyboards, not to mention the multiltude of computers - I find it very hard to believe that in the competitive business of recording studios, that they can afford to spend hundreds & thousands of dollars on a cable, and multiply that money to hook up every single piece of equipment with hi-end cable.  They might use Hosa snake cables, but I cant imagine they go out and spend a fortune on 'whatever-brand hi end cables for their equipment.

So, as I have stated before, it seems illogical to me that Eric Clapton (or substiute the musician of your choice) does not need to use hi end cables in the studio where his music is created, yet if Eric listens to the actual music at home on his hi fi system that he created in the studio, then he has to go out and get magical cables to hear what he did in the studio better (where those cables werent used in the first place). How much simpler does this have to be broken down to in order to point out the contradiction?

And I am still waiting to hear about those wires inside the Groneberg Quattro- in terms of any distinguishing characteristics they have to account for how electrons flowing through them are able to sound better thru your speakers than other brands of cable.  Are the wires inside there or the blue tube of any special robust construction that it should cost the price it does? Are they using any special wires that have any rare quailities that no other cable manufacturer is using?

Unfortunately, since we are all discussing this Online, we can only go by one person's word or opinion vs another.  If a Gronberg cable representative were at my house and he could consistenly identify his cable in a blind listening test by the way it sounds better than the other brand cable, THEN I would have some Proof to go on to believe him (or any othe cable manufacturer who thinks their cables sound the best). And there'd be less suspicion that audio sales people are hyping up their products in order to make a buck off the gullible home hi fi listener who's always looking for that elusive magical sound.

I'd do the test with Groneberg's on one speaker, and brandX on the other speaker- if Groneberg's are really superior, then the sound coming from that one speaker with the Groneberg's will always sound better and correctly identified by the blindfolded listener, right?  Otherwise, if the difference cant be heard, whats the point to buy something that really isnt better when the claim cannot be backed up by the seller?

As for me, the most significant differences I hear are when I replace an ordinary cd with one thats been digitally remastered or on the SACD format.  

Are all the cable advocates saying to me that when you just swap cables and "upgrade" to "hi end" cables, that you can hear the same tpye of before/after difference as I mentioned with CD->remastered or SACD?

B/F

pugs

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Groneberg Quattro Speaker Cables
« Reply #19 on: 6 Mar 2004, 10:28 pm »
You're telling me that Eric Clapton doesn't use good cables in his recording studio?  Give me a break.  How can you assume that?  I'm not saying he uses the ultra expensive stuff, but I'm sure he uses high quailty cables and connectors.  Maybe something like Canare or Belden.  If Captain Humble uses good stuff in his studio, I think it's a safe bet that Eric Clapton does.

I've done plenty of blind testings where my wife or a friend will switch out cables and can consitently tell them which one I like best.

Good for you if you can't the difference between cables, but I certaintly can.  I don't know what exactly is in the Groneberg, but I assume it has high quality OFC, good sheilding, and you can't deny the quality of the connectors of the ICs.

If you have friends, why don't you do your own testing?  That's easy enough isn't it?

I would understand you a little more if you said that hi end cables do make a difference, but they're just not worth the money.  But to think that high end cables don't make any difference is kind of laughable.  :lol:

I have to go back to the studio thing again.  Your argument is based on the assumption that recording studios don't use good cables.  I've been in plenty of low to mid budget studios, and they don't use crap.  They're not using $150 cables, but use good quality stuff like canare and Belden.

Of course you're not getting the same upgrade in sound than the upgrade from redbook to SACD.  Maybe you expected some sort of revelation, but I don't think anybody else here is saying that.  Nobody on this thread has said once that cables are like getting a new amp or speakers, or upgrading to a high rez format.  You're the only one that has implied that.  You're creating your own arguments with a lot of false assuptions.

I would recommend that you do some of your own testing, and decide for yourself if it's worth it to you.