[KnowTalent]

if you're concerned about asthetics you can purchase wicker/rattan baskets or hampers, line them with rockwool and use them as planters, etc... fairly unobtrusive vs. dedicated acoustic treatments and easy to move around

[doug s.]

The GedLee's are optimized for small rooms according to their white paper and online design descriptions. They look awfully small, and integrating 4 (!) subs into the sound is a recipe for tedious trial and error with potentially disappointing results, I would think. I had a sub, and I got rid of it as soon as I got better amplification and transmission line speakers.

In the price range of the GedLees, you could consider some Salk HT2-TLs. With one of Jim's custom veneers, they would really like great in that space. If you give Jim Salk a call, he would be happy to give you sound advice about filling a big room (with great sound).

If you run them with a Wyred4Sound STP-SE and a pair of SX-1000 monoblocks you would have all the juice you need. I just upgraded to the STP-SE, and it would be great for a large room because aside from excellent transparency it has amazing timbre that will really make the music sound real and natural. The monoblocks will give you excellent imaging.

Well, have fun with it!

a few comments,  first, i have never heard gedlee or salk speakers.  but, based upon room size alone, i would pick the gedlee abbeys hands down over the the salks if i were given this choice, simply based upon how the gedlee throws a sound stage, and the fact that it will take about 5 times the amplifier power to drive the salk ht2-tl speaker to the same spl.  and not only that, the gedlee abbey will also handle more power.  that is critical, especially in a room this size.  the gedlee wave-guide design, while certainly offering adwanteges in smaller rooms, due to its directional wavefront reducing some unwanted reflections, by no means infers these wont be good in a large space.  the gedlee will absolutely crush the salk ht2-tl in trying to produce a realistic full sound in a room this large.  (and this is the smaller abbey; the summa would be even better.)  the salk will top out at ~112db continuous.  the abbey will top out at 125db continuous.  this difference is HUGE!  while it may not matter in a normal listening room, it's all the difference in the world in a room of this size.  your comment about the abbey being small and for small rooms is completely off base.

jim salk is a upstanding fellow and makes some fine loudspeakers.  calling him up and asking for adwice is a good idea.  i bet he would recommend you awoid anything he makes, and stick w/the gedlees, or other speakers utilizing pro-audio drivers - even his most expensive ($14k starting price) soundscape 12's will max out at <115db.  normal speakers yust won't cut it, imo, in a space like that...  spend $14k on some salk soundscape 12's, and you will still be needing subs.

the speakers being used now, in fact - the emerald physics cs2's - would likely be closer to the gedlees in performance in that room, due to their high efficiency and use of pro-audio drivers - IF they were properly positioned (like i suggested) and used with multiple subs.  in fact, if my choice were the gedlees or the emerald physics - another speaker i have never heard - in that case, i'd wanna do a comparison before i chose, i wouldn't simply pick one or the other based upon what i know on paper. 

regarding subwoofers, yes, trying to integrate a single sub in a speaker system optimized for music can be a recipe for disaster.  the more subs you have, the easier it is to integrate them into a room.  and, as i said before, w/a room that big, there is absolutely no way you will come close to natural full sound at decent spl's w/o some SERIOUS subwoofing going on.  which is why i suggested something like the danley dts20's, for at least two of the subs....

ymmv,

doug s.

[jimdgoulding]

Doug's comments made me think of the AudioKinesis' Planatarium Beta system.  Made to order with four self powered subs and crossover.  Heard that system in a large attic room with a cathedral ceiling and it was room filling and breathtaking.  Prosound drivers, also.  Guy previously had owned the biggest Sound Lab stats.     

http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_planetarium-beta.html

[doug s.]

jim,

audiokinesis' systems are similar in design to the gedlees', duke freely admits he borrowed some gedlee ideas.  so i would also expect his speakers would work well, but i still think you are going to need more output than what you can get from 4 subs w/8" drivers.  was your friend's room ~30x40, along with the cathedral ceilings?

doug s.

[nwboater]

For subs I would suggest the Danley DTS-10 rather than the DTS-20. Here is a quote from their website:

"DTS-10, the latest in the “monster” category of Danley subs. It is the reference standard high definition cinema subwoofer with an unheard of output down to 10 Hz, having at least twice the power of the renown DTS-20.

Originally produced as an industry first “do-it-yourself” subwoofer kit, the new and improved DTS-10 is now a regular member of our product line. It makes an outstanding home theatre solution and is guaranteed to make any home theatre enthusiast drool!"

I own one and use it in a 19' x13' x 7' room with our Klipschorns and it's incredible. Tons of CLEAN low end!

Good luck.

Rod

[doug s.]

the dts10 certainly outperforms the dts20.  but, i recommended the dts20 because i figure at least a pair will be needed in that room, and they will be easier to situate in the living space.  if you could adequately situate two dts10's in that room, it would be wery nice, for sure.  but i would choose a pair of dts20's over a single dts10 if that were my choice.  i much prefer the way stereo subs load a room...  perhaps danley could configure a sub w/two 12" drivers like the dts10 in a column-shaped enclosure...

doug s.

[davidrs]

as my first preference in a living space is sound of my audio system, (and i don't care much about a tv screen), my first choice for speaker location would be where the blue squares are; then, possibly i'd consider the red squares,  in either case, the listening position would be where the bigger red square is.  all this +/-, of course, depending on the actual situation in the room.  for sure, i'd have the backs of the speakers at least 4' from the rear walls, preferably 6'.  and the listening position as far back as possible, w/o getting to close to the stairwell - which might need some absorption on it. 

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tapped_horn.asp?MODEL=DTS%2020



doug s.

Second Doug's recommendation re. placement on the blue squares. I would spread the squares apart, IF:

Have you considered Planars? You've got the space to spread them out. Of course, with sub reinforcement?

Or some corner loading speakers? Ala Audio Note. You could add some treatment to the corner that is different from the facing left corner (I'm guessing based on the diagram) to even out response.

You don't have an issue of scale that most of us have to deal with. So larger horns may fit beautifully. If you want to stay more conventional, consider something along the lines of Tyler's larger speaker offerings. He also offers a PD line that may work. May eliminate the need for subs.

Have you strongly considered placing the monitor/screen in the center where the cathedral window is? I'm dealing with a similar issue. My window is about half of the size of yours and I'm serious thinking about using it - would solve a ton of issues with room placement and opens up speaker possibilities (pm me for more details). You can always have a retractable drop down screen (suspended form the ceiling) that "disappears" when not being used so you get to enjoy the gorgeous cathederal window. Old school theatre feel....curtains down, screen opens up! Also eliminates your huge and major source of light, while watching the screen.

Great suggestions from all the posters.

Finally, curious as to why you are holding on to the Squeezebox?

Gorgeous space. All the best getting it dialed in.

- David.

[jtwrace]

For subs I would suggest the Danley DTS-10 rather than the DTS-20. Here is a quote from their website:

Rod

How much do these cost?

[cmryan21]

How much do these cost?

The dts10 is 3K for the non-powered version and 4K for the powered version. Not sure about the dts20. If memory serves it's similar to the dts10.

[WGH]

There is another option that may work, I think the Klipshorns would look and sound great in that room.
What do you guys think?



Wayne

[cloudbaseracer]

That room has a ton of possibilities given a proper setup.  The size is such that we'd actually look at it from the standpoint of large room acoustics rather than small room acoustics.  ie - skip the bass control and work on developing a bass wavefront and minimizing slap echo and parallel surfaces.

Some of the things mentioned already will work fine.  The windows and the asymetric location of your setup will still be problematic.

The only places I would really address serious absorption assuming the existing location are:

- left wall to give better symmetry
- left front corner to minimize the corner loading of just one side
- peak of the ceiling to minimize horn effect.

other than that, just work on breaking up large, flat surfaces.

Bryan

Bryan,

I realize I have asked for help and a lot of comments will be to change speaker position.  Unfortunately, I do not see myself eliminating the plasma, moving to either side of the north Gothic window, getting a projector.....  I would like to know what I can do within the realm of what I have?  Or is it a situation where I will never get good sound without some/most of those changes?  What do you mean by break up large flat surfaces?  What do you mean by skip the bass control and develop bass wavefront?

Getting the room's reverberation time (the time it takes for sound to decay) down into the range for high quality music reproduction is going to be tough without spoiling the aesthetic. I can image you are probably suffering from poor clarity and definition as a result of the long decay times.

You have virtually no absorptive surfaces in there as far as I can tell, does it sound 'echoey'?

One of the issues with a space like that is you can treat around the listening position to get a reasonable decay time in that space but you will tend to get an audible echo from the rest of the space which is untreated. So you will need to position absorption around the room. Doesn't necessarily have to be panels, could be soft furnishings, rugs, window treatments, etc. You will still have a longish decay time though because of the amount of untreated ceiling surface area.

Nyal,

It does seem to be a bit "echoey" Do you think that the ceiling is close enough to matter?  Not sure how I can effectively help with it.  There really is no way to cover it and it still look good. It took 2 months to restore so I do not want to  cover it up.
The stairwell (which I did not show a picture of) is lined all around the top with vertical panels of glass. These serve as a guardrail.  Although they are in the center of the room, there may still be some influence that they are having? The stairwell goes to the lower level and not up.

James,

First, let me join the chorus of complimenters on your digs. Simply wonderful.

I have some of the same problems you do. My main room is 22' long and a few inches over 10' across, with a ceiling that goes from 11' to 16'. The house is 1914 Craftsman bungalow, with _a lot_ of tall windows. I wont add room treatments. Also have the original wood floors.

My high ceiling just sucks the room dry. When I tried to compensate by turning up the volume, the wood floor starts to be a problem.

This evening, I decided to remove the back feet from the speaker cabinets, put a little felt pad on along the back edge where the speaker cabinet would (now) make contact with the floor, and see what would happen.

It fixed all of my problems: lack of bass response, bloom at certain frequencies, dead response at others; sound stage improved, along with height imaging that I didn't have previously; the room has good fill, and it sounds great in other parts of the house.

Tilt measures at 11 degrees. A No-Cost tweak, and I have almost got a "I just got a whole new music collection" level improvement out of the deal.

I don't know if tilt will help with what look like open baffle speakers. I would try it. The brick should help you out, and the tin is so high up, I don't think it will be a problem.

If you are going to go to different speakers, I would be looking at surface area of the drivers (the more area, the better), and possibly go with electrostats.

I think you biggest problem is in catering to the video. You are going to have a very hard time filling that room from the corner.

I hope you find a solution.

Mike

Mike,

Yes, the speakers are open baffle and I currently have each of them sitting on square pieces of granite from counter top sink cut-outs. I was trying to do this to give it a good foundation.  I also have the speakers at about 4' out from the back wall.  As the Emerald Physics CS2's have the crossover controlled by the Berhinger with several room settings, I have chosen the 6' setting.  I felt like this produced better bass, although not really enough.

Electrostats would be cool but they are just so inefficient for the most part that I worry they would never get to the sound.  I did consider the Magnepan 3.6 and then a few subs but the GedLee Abbey's seem to be a much better option.  They are said to play at EXTREMELY high volumes.  Something I do not think electrostats will be capable of.

if you're concerned about asthetics you can purchase wicker/rattan baskets or hampers, line them with rockwool and use them as planters, etc... fairly unobtrusive vs. dedicated acoustic treatments and easy to move around

I like this suggestion so today I did a little shopping and saw these.....




Something like this would look good but I just wonder how well they would work.  What I mean is that they seem to be almost woven solid.  I am probably missing the whole point but how does the rockwool affect the sound if it is not directly in contact with the in-coming waves?  wouldn't the sound just reflect off of them?  Or is that kind of the point in all of this?  What about putting absorption material underneath the sofa?  Does that have positive results? 

I actually manufacture a wool carpet padding that is about 1/2" thick and has a density of 40 oz per square yard (3' x 3' piece).  I wonder how I could incorporate this?  http://www.earthweave.com/padding.html  I have often thought it would be good for some acoustic panels.


For everyone's reference.  The whole room is full of huge windows.  The "cubicle" that was mentioned earlier is actually the bell tower.  It has three arched opening going into it.  The other spaces shown along all the walls are windows.  If it is not grey (which is the brick wall) it is glass.  There are two identical Gothics and then 5 windows that like the ones shown to the left of my left speaker. 

I know it is a challenging space but it is what I have.......


Cheers,

James

[cloudbaseracer]

Something like this would look good but I just wonder how well they would work.  What I mean is that they seem to be almost woven solid.  I am probably missing the whole point but how does the rockwool affect the sound quality if it is not directly in contact with the in-coming waves? Wouldn't the sound just reflect off of them?  Or is that kind of the point in all of this?  What about putting absorption material underneath the sofa?  Does that have positive results? 

I actually manufacture a wool carpet padding that is about 1/2" thick and has a density of 40 oz per square yard (3' x 3' piece).  I wonder how I could incorporate this?
http://www.earthweave.com/padding.htmlI have often thought it would be good for some acoustic panels.


For everyone's reference.  The whole room is full of huge windows.  The "cubicle" that was mentioned earlier is actually the bell tower.  It has three arched opening going into it.  The other spaces shown along all the walls are windows.  If it is not grey (which is the brick wall) it is glass.  There are two identical Gothics and then 5 windows that like the ones shown to the left of my left speaker. 

I know it is a challenging space but it is what I have.......


Cheers,

James
 

[JohnR]

I'm just wondering - from an acoustic point of view, why would Abbeys be any better than CS2's? The CS2 has dipole woofers and a waveguide tweeter, and should therefore have high directivity across the band to increase direct-to-reverberant ratio (per Linkwitz).

[doug s.]

while ob speakers could work well in that room - especially hi-efficiency ones - no way they will work in that room jammed into a corner like that.  your only option, imo, would  be to get speakers like the gedlees that are wave-guide based, which are designed to take the room  out of the equation as much as possible.  and, add subs elsewhere in the room.  you will get decent sound, but nowhere near what you could get, if you were to relocate the speakers.

a room like that is begging to have the speakers moved!     i really like the idea of a screen, to be dropped down in front of the gothic window, when tv/movies are to be wiewed.  (in my studio apartment, we never watch tv, so, when we want to watch a movie, we pull out our big flat-screen from its hiding place and set it up between the speakers...)

doug s.

[doug s.]

I'm just wondering - from an acoustic point of view, why would Abbeys be any better than CS2's? The CS2 has dipole woofers and a waveguide tweeter, and should therefore have high directivity across the band to increase direct-to-reverberant ratio (per Linkwitz).

i could be wrong, but i don't think dipoles would work well when jammed into a corner like that, in that huge room.  i'd think monopoles would be better - too much difference between how the left & right dipole speakers will interact w/that room when shoved into a corner...  per my earlier comments, if they were moved, i would think they would work at least as well as the gedlees...

doug s.

[bpape]

My suggestions were made within the context of staying where you are.  Yes - I would like to see you move to a more symmetric location but if that's not in the cards, then so be it.

In large room acoustics, the bass is allowed ro develop and propogate freely. Your room is difficult as you're kind of on the border between 'small' and 'large' rooms.  Some bass control will likely be necessary but the other things are more critical as you're hearing.

Breaking up large flat surfaces can be accomplished with diffusion or with other objects which simply are going to cause a wave to see something other than a large, flat surface.  The larger and deeper and more irregular these additions are, the lower in the range they will have an impact. 


Watching your furnishings will certainly help some but it's really a drop in the bucket in that room given it's volume.  I would try to do some treatment on the ceiling, specifically straddling the peak to kill any focusing and horn effect while adding a bit of bass control to the situation.

Bryan

[bpape]

I actually manufacture a wool carpet padding that is about 1/2" thick and has a density of 40 oz per square yard (3' x 3' piece).  I wonder how I could incorporate this?
http://www.earthweave.com/padding.htmlI have often thought it would be good for some acoustic panels.

Can't say specifically since the manufacturer doesn't supply that data  but it will probably be somewhat useful if used in a minimum of 5 thicknesses, more is better. 

Bryan

[Mike Nomad]

Mike,

Yes, the speakers are open baffle and I currently have each of them sitting on square pieces of granite from counter top sink cut-outs. I was trying to do this to give it a good foundation.  I also have the speakers at about 4' out from the back wall.  As the Emerald Physics CS2's have the crossover controlled by the Berhinger with several room settings, I have chosen the 6' setting.  I felt like this produced better bass, although not really enough.

Electrostats would be cool but they are just so inefficient for the most part that I worry they would never get to the sound.  I did consider the Magnepan 3.6 and then a few subs but the GedLee Abbey's seem to be a much better option.  They are said to play at EXTREMELY high volumes.  Something I do not think electrostats will be capable of.

Not being familiar w/ Gedlee, I took a look at their site. You are definitely addressing the idea of driver surface area with a 12" woofer. However, if you are going in the direction of Gedlee, I would go with the Summa for a couple of reasons. First, 15" woofers _might_ reduce some of your need for subs. Second, and I think more important, based on cabinet size comparison of the Summa vs. Abbey, the Summa will locate the tweeter (physically) higher in the room. If that is not correct, would someone who knows the product better please correct me on this?

[TRADERXFAN]

All of the Gedlee speakers are sealed and do roll off around 80 hz. You will want a sub of some kind with them.

The size of the woofer in the Gedlee's is large because it is specified to match the directivity of the horn at the crossover frequency.  It isn't that size to make more "bass" as it typically seen.

Just to correct a misunderstanding. Where someone said that the Gedlees were designed for "small rooms" refers to small, as in a residential sized space, versus a large commercial venue like a nightclub, etc. Not a small room of a house. They would probably be a better option in that case, as well though.

-Tony

[Glenn Kuras]

Get some "Art" to hang on the walls that is made of cloth and has absorptive material inside the frame.

Actually you can get a process done called Die Sublimation, which is Art on the front of panels.
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