[orthobiz]

Letitroll...

Teaser was mastered digitally, the original was not available. May want to check out the brown label original with LH Lee Hulko in the dead wax, just for grins.

Paul

[TONEPUB]

Or maybe his system is fine and he just thinks the Cisco pressing sucks.

--Jerome

I think you're absolutely right.

[Letitroll98]

Letitroll...

Teaser was mastered digitally, the original was not available. May want to check out the brown label original with LH Lee Hulko in the dead wax, just for grins.

Paul

I used to have it, but some albums went missing over the years.      The reissue is quite nice, I will definitely look for an old copy though.  We have a great used record outlet here in So. Jersey and I've seen a copy there, but it was much abused so I passed it by.

[drphoto]

I will try to find a 'regular' version of "Aja" and report back. Maybe I just thought the $40 version would blow away my $5 of "Can't Buy...." But not a fair comparison, as they are two different records.

The Cisco pressing just sounds lifeless to me. It doesn't 'suck' per se. Maybe I over reacted, but it was $40 which is a lot for one record. I guess I just expected more.

[guest4954]

I don't know anything about hot stampers.

But when your normal vinyl sounds consistantly better then check your VTA.
I don't want to start a new debate whether it is VTA or the correlated tracking weight change.

The difference in height because of the heavyweight vinyl makes a difference. When your set-up is already at an edge this difference will be very noticeable.

My 2cts

Michiel

[Letitroll98]

I don't know anything about hot stampers.

But when your normal vinyl sounds consistantly better then check your VTA.
I don't want to start a new debate whether it is VTA or the correlated tracking weight change.

The difference in height because of the heavyweight vinyl makes a difference. When your set-up is already at an edge this difference will be very noticeable.

My 2cts

Michiel

Great point!  I don't know why I was so stupid to not see the obvious, I have VTA adjustability so I just think everybody does, thanks Michiel.  Yes, your music can have less treble and more bass when you play a thicker, 180gr or 200gr, record because the VTA will be less and the resultant SRA will change more or less dependent on where it was to begin with.  This can translate to sounding "lifeless" even though the actually recording is superior.

[jsaliga]

I think there is some margin of error with VTA, and I know that this opinion runs counter to conventional wisdom.  But on my SME 309 arm I have done it three different ways: dialing VTA in for a standard LP, 180g, and 200g vinyl.  I really could not identify any audible difference in performance.  That doesn't mean there isn't one, however.  So what I did was split the difference and dialed my VTA in using a heavy vinyl record as my baseline (typically ~ 120 to 140g) and left it at that.

I would consider looking at my setup if none of my 180g or 200g vinyl sounded right but standard pressings were good.  Even then, the difference in listening experience may still lay elsewhere.  I tend to agree with drphoto that most rock reissues on 180g vinyl are not as good as the original pressings.  For example, take the Steve Hoffman remaster of the Yes classic Fragile, pressed on 180g vinyl at RTI and reissued by Analogue Prodctions.  I didn't think it compared favorably to my minty original pressing.  The sound on the remaster was just too warm and closed-in for my tastes.  The original had better dynamics and was more airy and open.  As I recall Wayner really liked the reissue and we exchanged a few posts about our listening experiences.  I don't think there is anything wrong with Wayner's setup (he knows plently enough about vinyl and how to dial-in a cartridge) nor do I think there is anything wrong with his hearing.  And I know there isn't anything wrong with my setup.  We have different systems, to be sure, but we don't necessarily have the same expectations and listening preferences.

All I am saying is that I would be very reluctant to start tearing my system apart because one reissue LP on 180g vinyl didn't sound good.  Michael Fremer didn't think very much of the 180g reissue of Exile on Main Street, but as I recall Jeff Dorgay was impressed by it.  Does that mean that Fremer should take a look at his setup?

Sometimes a difference of opinion is just that, and doesn't require a search for causality.

--Jerome

[Letitroll98]

Your points are quite valid jsaliga, I can't disagree with a single one, and I set my VTA to a mean average as well.  But that doesn't mean changes in VTA, or more precisely SRA, with thicker records doesn't make a difference.  I wouldn't recommend tearing apart you rig either, but if one has easy VTA adjustability and notices differences that point to lifelessness in thicker pressings, it is a valid area of investigation before trashing the recording out of hand.  My experience is that the significance of VTA settings varies tremendously with different cartridges.  And you and I both made adjustments to VTA to account for record thickness, albeit to get to a mean average, it was still an adjustment.  I think drphoto has a Rega arm so he may be quite a bit further away from that average than you or I.....or Michael Fremer.   

[drphoto]

Hey guys, I really appreciate your thinking and your post on this. Some very good points have been made.

Yes, as an owner of a Rega, I do not have on the fly adjustable VTA. I've considered purchase of the Pete Riggle unit. (Mr. Pig has one for sale at a great price)

 As everyone knows, Rega sets up their arm for their own carts which are less tall than most. I'm running a Denon DL-160, and the sound became liveler and more open (and a bit brighter) when I installed the 2mm shim, as one might expect.

But my heavy versions of Miles' "Kinda Blue" and Nirvana's "Nevermind" (yeah....I like pretty much every type of music) sound just dandy. Of course, I don't have the regular pressings. On both of these, I went w/ the reissues because I simply could not find the regular version, so I have no baseline.

But I like how these sound.

With regards to the copy of "AJA", it be what Jerome suggest, I just don't care for the decision that were made for this reissue.

As I said, I will look for a regular copy and report back.

I'm seriously loving the vinyl experience. I have a very good digital front end. I still use it, and it's fine, but it doesn't move me like vinyl has.

Thanks again to everyone for all the help.

[JackD201]

I did not want to believe it but Hot Stampers really are different. Although I find the prices steep and thus never acquired any for myself the Hot Stamper brought over (Basia - Time and Tide) was significantly better than the copy I have.

Like I said, I still didn't want to believe so I went from my main table (TW AC-3/Phantom/XV-1s) to playing the two LPs side by side on identically set up SL-1210 M5Gs with identical Ortofon Pro S carts run off my Tascam Pro X-9 mixer. Back and forth I went and the differences were the same.

The thing is when the owner left with his LP all in all I didn't miss the hot stamper all that much. I guess now I know for sure they are the real thing but I would rather spend my money on first edition Deccas or MLS'. At least for me it's just a matter of priorities.

[colhogan]

I agree.
 I've been an enthusiast  for over 25 years now,and have only gotten into LP's a few years back,being kinda bored with the "hard" sound of CD's. The LP's just sound more alive,but that being said, I have found that some CD's sound better than the LP counterparts.
 These hot-stampers smell like just another high-end scam. $300.00 for one record? I don't think so..
 Don't misunderstand my remarks-Good audio playback gear helps the enjoyment of our hobby incredibly,but I've also become a bit jaded by the never-ending scams that come down the pike,all aimed at  us audiophiles.
 These guys just smell money. And when you claim not to hear any big improvement,they use the usual cop-out line that "Your audio system needs to be better"! (We've all been told that before!)
This is one of the reasons why blogs & on-line retailers thrive. The high-end shop is becoming a dinosaur.The only thing these guys see when you walk through the door is a "sucker". It took me years to figure that one out.
I've gotten $3.00 LP's that sounded better than some $30.00 180 Gr pressings.
 Muddy Waters Live At Newport 1960 comes to mind. Great music,but I'm sorry I paid $30.00 for it. I'll never get my money back on that one unless it completely goes out of print..
If I sound a little bitter,it's because I am....

[orthobiz]

I'm still looking for a good Days Of Future Passed. I have 4 mediocre copies. Tom takes the time to listen and pick the good ones. Granted, I could never pay Hot Stamper prices but the idea is intriguing. And if you go to stevehoffman.tv you can read about all the different dead wax matrices and engineers' initials and 1841 Broadway Atlantic labels and whatnot.

But if I went through 300 dollars of Moody Blues I'd be bound to find the elusive hot stamper myself!

Paul

[Toni Rambold]

I'm still looking for a good Days Of Future Passed.

I think, you know that the master tapes were found "deteriorated" in 1978.
So if you want the original mix try:

UK pressing 1967, Deram SML 707 Stereo, white label, red or brown DSS
lettering, ZAL 8078-?W, ZAL 8079-?W in the dead wax (? between 1 to 3
will be OK).

If you want an immaculate, inexpensive pressing of the remix try:

Deram DOA 6 (820 006), ZAL 8078 6X, ZAL 8079 6X in the dead wax.
This is a dutch pressing (PolyGram/Philips bought Decca in 1980).


Happy Hunting

[orthobiz]

Thanks, Rambold! I will audition an MFSL copy in the near future. Someone I know has 29 different audiophile records up for sale...

Paul

[Mitsuman]

I agree.
 I've been an enthusiast  for over 25 years now,and have only gotten into LP's a few years back,being kinda bored with the "hard" sound of CD's. The LP's just sound more alive,but that being said, I have found that some CD's sound better than the LP counterparts.
 These hot-stampers smell like just another high-end scam. $300.00 for one record? I don't think so..
 Don't misunderstand my remarks-Good audio playback gear helps the enjoyment of our hobby incredibly,but I've also become a bit jaded by the never-ending scams that come down the pike,all aimed at  us audiophiles.
 These guys just smell money. And when you claim not to hear any big improvement,they use the usual cop-out line that "Your audio system needs to be better"! (We've all been told that before!)
This is one of the reasons why blogs & on-line retailers thrive. The high-end shop is becoming a dinosaur.The only thing these guys see when you walk through the door is a "sucker". It took me years to figure that one out.
I've gotten $3.00 LP's that sounded better than some $30.00 180 Gr pressings.
 Muddy Waters Live At Newport 1960 comes to mind. Great music,but I'm sorry I paid $30.00 for it. I'll never get my money back on that one unless it completely goes out of print..
If I sound a little bitter,it's because I am....

Isn't this the basis for most audiophiles existance?  And the reason the term "caveat emptor" came into existance? 

[colhogan]

Isn't this the basis for most audiophiles existance?  And the reason the term "caveat emptor" came into existance? 

Yes, It is, but you usually find out these things AFTER you spend the money..

[neobop]

FWIW, DMM stands for direct metal master. It's a record pressing process that eliminates 1 step. Something to do with the mother and stamper. It has nothing to do with analogue vs digital recording.

I tend to agree with almost all the posts on this thread, even though some seem contradictory. Appropriateness of product and cost vs results, varies from one person to the next. It's easy to get caught up in our obsession and lose perspective. While I would never pay $300 for a record, maybe it's worth it for some super busy rich person if he/she gets the quality they want.

I used to work in high end audio. That was a long time ago and I have no interest in defending high end retailers. But there can be advantages dealing with a actual store rather than buying expensive items on line, if you're lucky enough to have a "good" local retailer. One of those advantages is being able to try stuff at home, in your system. Another is having a local dealer to make it right if there's a problem. The last store in which I worked would discount everything, including "protected" high end lines. Not all stores are like that I know. But just yesterday I was reading (on another forum) about a guy who bought a VERY expensive "perfect" cartridge on Agon that turned out to be defective. He was trying to figure out how to get his money back.
YMMV?

neo

[Trover]

I am aware this thread is old but the topic does'nt warrant a new thread and remains relevant for any record collector. Tom Port has long decried "audiophile" pressings. He is a salesman selling a very specific product for which a market exists. Whether one thinks they are a rip is something else. As some have done here, your own "shootout" is all the evidence you would need to verify or dismiss the "hot stamper" concept. Collecting is a learning process, though you may know what they indicate as to the pressing plant and the mastering engineer (even down to the handwriting if initials are absent) "Dead wax" etchings and other information about the record are only a general guide and no absolute guarantee of good sound. Regardless of what the record is ("regular", "original", "later unoriginal", "reissue", "Audiophile", "180g", "1A", "S1", "RL", "SH/KG") or where it comes from, disregard any assumptions or expectations, or whether the record is a highly regarded pressing raved about by certain audio critics. At its core the concept is simple as it gets, play the record, either it sounds good or it does'nt....end of story. That is all Tom Port does and in so doing the wheat is separated from the chaff. Some people are willing to pay a premium for the wheat, others may harvest their own albeit on a smaller field.

[TONEPUB]

While I agree that early original pressings of some records can be better, I think the purpose of the audiophile remaster has become skewed over the years.  But it has a lot to do with the collector nature of many audiophiles, you don't need every copy of Steely Dan's Aja, or any other title for that matter.

I look at a decent audiophile pressing as a way for the person who doesn't have a great copy of a record they'd really like to own a second chance to get a fresh one.  In some cases, as with Friday Music's reissues of Boston's s/t and Grand Funk's We're an American Band, there are plentiful early stampers of these still available and if you dig, you can find one for $5-10.

But there are other records, like the ones in the recent Grateful Dead box set from Rhino that compare favorably, if not even a bit better to first stamper, white label promos that if you can find them, all cost more EACH than that box set does.

And the line is drawn right down the middle on the Music Matters Blue Notes.  I prefer the slightly modern sound of Joe Harley's work, while hard core collectors prefer the original Blue Notes, but they fetch somewhere between $250 and over $1000 each if you can find pristine examples.

The bottom line is that there isn't a steadfast rule here.

I've even gone to the trouble to get two identical turntable setups so that the job of comparing this kind of thing is even easier, because no one likes to buy a $35 pressing that isn't interesting.  It was bad enough back in the day to spend $6 on a crappy record.  At today's prices, this is painful.

[Trover]

Tonepub, you make some good points. I dont condemn 180g the way Port does. What little I know I have learned from collecting for many years, and there is actually some useful information to be had from Ports web site and his approach. Particularly his questioning of both the claimed superiority of MFSL, Classic, Cisco etc. as well as traditional collector values- which usually is: originals, originals, originals! or if not first press, the earlier the better. The revelation first began when I got an original of Johnny winter progressive blues experiment, brought it home and it sounded worse than my reissue. Another time it was Miles Davis My Funny Valentine, a columbia plum 70's reissue and it sounded incredible. Then I came across a 360 and said "oh this is going to be even better", but guess what...it was nowhere near as good as the later one I had. I've had similar experiences with "audiophile" versus "regular". I was able to substantially beat Classic records audiophile 180g of David Crosby 1st solo album by shooting out a handful of "regular" pressings.
I'd agree there are opportunities within the present 180g stuff. I do get some of the Music matter Blue notes. And have a few other 180 G things from the 90's. Even Port rarely comes up with Blue Note Hot stampers. I'd never know how Sonny's crib on 180g is relative to an original, but I have never seen a Sonny's crib, let alone an original, so naturally I'm going to get Sonny's Crib. I've never seen a good condition original of Sonic youth "Sister" so I got the recent ORG version. Basically I only buy new 180g if I know it will be very hard to find otherwise.
The two most obvious things one might consider in the purchase of a "Hot Stamper"  (also mentioned by others here) are that Hot Stampers have no real world value, they don't lose 20 percent of their value when you drive 'em off the lot, they lose 99 percent. The other factor is your audio system, musical preferences and room acoustics may not be the same as his. That said, I've done enough experimenting to know his approach is the way to find the best sounding records and would'nt doubt his records sound very good.