[drphoto]

Sorry if this has been discussed before. I'm sort of new in this circle.

Has anyone here heard one of the so called Hot Stampers from Better Records? I don't have hundreds to shell out for a single album, so I don't know. Is it crazy? I don't know that either.
I'm just curious if anyone can verify the claims.....ie A/B a regular disk vs. the HS version.

 I do tend to agree with the guy that the so called 'audiophile' heavyweight reissues can be crap. I shelled out $40 for Steely Dan's "AJA", a 180g reissue and it sucks. Quiet? yeah, but so are the dead, and this record is DOA. I have regular run of the mill pressing of "Gaucho" from the local dealer for $5. Yeah, it has a bit of surface noise, but it just jumps otherwise. My 180g reissue of the Floyd's DSotM sounds like poo. It's not even all that quiet. Another $40 down the drain. So far, I'm having much better luck w/ $5 used regular release stuff. (so far, I've not scored any yard sale or junk shop 50 cent specials)

[Letitroll98]

Hi doc.  The Hot Stamper scam is a joke.  Yes, pressings do vary, a lot.  Early stampings will sound much better than later pressings, but that's not what he's saying.  He's saying his run of the mill commercial pressing is so fabulous it should sell for $300 and up.  This is a product at it's best severely limited by production decisions and compromises to make these albums play on the cheap mass market systems of the day.  The best argument I heard against Hot Stampers is that you will never, ever re-sell that HS for more than a tiny fraction of what you paid for it no matter how much you hollar about how great it sounds.

http://vinylfanatics.com/analoglovers/page26.html

Yes, many audiophile pressings, and modern pressings in general, are found sorely lacking.  Many are just fine, if not outstandingly great.  However it's not a complete crapshoot today.  If you get some good pressings from a particular label, it's likely they will maintain that quality, and the reverse is also true.  For example I've never had a bad Sub Pop pressing, Stockfisch records are amazing, most Nonesuch are pretty good.  I'll refrain from mentioning the bad in public, as perhaps it was bad luck rather than a bad company.

Vintage pressings can be bad, but with the volume of product then it generated more competent factory personnel, so less stupid errors.  But even then you don't know and price doesn't always make the difference.  For example I have three CBS recordings of Leonard Bernstein and the NYP performing The Planets, the cheapest mass market reissue sounds far and above the best.

Like the ol' by said, "Yo pays yo money and yo takes yo chances".   
   

[Elizabeth]

Try this: buy $300 worth of ordinary copies instead of the so called hot stamper single LP for $300.
Then you can listen to your approxamately 60 LPs and pick out one that sounds the best. Sell the rest.
But for real.. the idea is great. Make a bundle off fools by selling 'special' records for 60 times the real retail value. Like the Emperor with no clothing on, the buyer will not start complaining, because if they can't hear a difference.. they will be thought to not have a 'good enough' system/Golden ears to tell the difference.
Sort of works like any of the crazy stuff that folks get hypnotized by and think it works: like Tice Clocks, Brilliant Pebbles, Shakti sticks.. and "hot stampers".
Now the hot stampers may be minty, cleaned LPs that play real fine... but only a rich person or a fool would buy them.

[chosenhandle]

not that I have bought any of his records...

just a simple question: What if his hot stampers actually DO sounds better? I have not heard any so I can't comment one way or the other. I think someone who has heard them or bought them needs to add to this thread.

If they do sound better, the question simply is: are they worth that much? That is a personal decision and there is no right or wrong answer.

I have done what Elizabeth suggested on a couple of records. An example: Tom wanted about $300 for a hot stamper "Teaser and The Firecat". I knew that he likes the brown label A&M's/Sterling or original Island pressings, so I bought every copy I could find for about 3 months (always the A&M's). They sell for about $2 so I think I put about $30 into the project. I immediately rejected about half due to groove damage or some other reason and started whittling down the rest. A few sounded better than the others. I couldn't identify the exact reason-dead wax did not indicate anything out of the ordinary. In the end, I chose the one I liked and gave away the rest. The bad ones were thrown away so others wouldn't waste their money on them at goodwill.

Fun project and I learned a lot. I didn't have to spend $300, but then again, It took a long time to figure out what one was "best". The difference between the the LP's was not dramatic. Let's face it, that record has an outstanding sound no matter what pressing. Perhaps Tom's value is that he does what I did...he listens to a BUNCH of them and tries to find one that stands out.

Not trying to defend DCC, just wondering out loud.

[Letitroll98]

Tom wanted about $300 for a hot stamper "Teaser and The Firecat". I knew that he likes the brown label A&M's/Sterling or original Island pressings, so I bought every copy I could find for about 3 months (always the A&M's).

I simply bought the 180 gr reissue instead, which sounds fabulous.  But I certainly like your path more than buying a $300 rip off.

[Nels Ferre]

I bought one of his LPs on eBay a number of years back, and it was fine. (Not a HS)

I figure one is better off buying a record cleaning system of some sort and getting the LPs one wants to enjoy, whether they be new (hit or miss) or from a used record shop (same, but usually less $$ involved, HS not withstanding.) One could also check estate sales, yard sales etc.

As far as the HS question- let's use the Beatles catalog as an example. The US Capitols and Apples generally sucked. Original UK Parlophones are generally regarded as the best, but good copies are rare and pricey. In the middle are the early 80's UK and Japanese pressings, which to my ear sound wonderful, although I prefer the UK over the Japanese pressings, someone else is bound to prefer the opposite. Heck at Better Records HS prices, the MoFi pressings can look like a bargain. I doubt his HS pressings will sound that much  better than an early '80s UK.
Also, I never liked the DMM pressings at all (digitally sourced.)

While we all suffer from varying levels of audio OCD, as said before, hot stampers are a joke.

[Scottdazzle]

Tom Port has a very clever business idea.  He latched on to the fact that different copies of the same record can all sound different to varying degrees.  He took it to the logical extreme that if the differences can be heard then there's money to be made from people who want the best and can afford it.  Tom has also provided a public service in pointing out that fancy reissues aren't necessarily as good or better than a good old copy.  I've bought records from him and they were just fine as was the service, but I didn't buy any hot stampers.  I think the HS prices are just ridiculous and I'm surprised anyone can or will pay those prices. 

Just the same, HS led me to do my own shootouts.  5 copies of Steely Dan's Aja got me one good one (and it's not that awful Cisco 180 gram pos).  I think Mikey Fremer is really out to lunch praising that one.  It took 4 copies top get one of Jackson Browne's 1st lp that was good enough to keep.  Copies of the Eagles' Desperado were all over the place sonically.  The white label Asylum was just so-so (usually white labels are the best) and the black label reissue was overly bright.  A run of the mill blue label sounded best. 

I probably paid a grand total of less than $40 for all of the Aja's, Desperados, and JB's, except for the Cisco Aja which cost me $32 and wasn't even a keeper.

The point here is to buy multiple copies of records you like and you can find your own hot stampers! 

Nels, are you sure DMM pressings are all digitally sourced?  I have some that give no indication of any digital process and don't sound diggy either.  Others are guilty as charged.

[drphoto]

Scotthobby, Yep....it was that Cisco POS version I got of Aja.  Just sucked and a total waste of money.

As you have suggested maybe this Tom fellow has done us a service by bring up the idea that all pressings are not created equal, especially the so called audiophile disk.

 I'm still curious as to whether anyone has heard an acutal HS? Maybe no one will fess up. 

Whether I purchase from him or not (won't be a HS on my salary) I do enjoy his commentary.

Doesn't mean I buy all his bluster however.

[royphil345]

Wow... A friend of mine bought that Cisco "Aja" and was crazy about it. I've only heard a digital rip of a track or two, but I thought it sounded pretty good. More detailed and "different" sounding than my original pressing, but it didn't seem to sound any leaner or anything overall. I believe he did complain of a defect and had to send back his first copy.

[Letitroll98]

I've bought records from him and they were just fine as was the service, but I didn't buy any hot stampers.

I don't mean to bust on your post Scott as I agree with your thoughts about Hot Stampers and the post in general, so please no offense, but the quoted sentence brought on a thought (dangerous for me, I know).  If you're buying a record from him that is not a HS, then by default you must be buying a POS pressing, otherwise it would have made it into some category of HS.  If not POS, then certainly inferior in some way.  I'm sure there is some too clever explanation on his site as to why this isn't so, but it can only detract from the Hot Stamper pro se philosophy.  I could be missing something here, but just wondering... 
 

[jsaliga]

I think Hot Stampers are a great marketing ploy to induce people to pay an order of magnitude more for what they have already been buying all along. 

--Jerome

[drphoto]

There's nothing wrong w/ the Cisco copy of Aja per se. It just sounds dead.....boring.

My $5 copies of Gaucho and Can't Buy a Thrill on the other hand just flat out boogie.

Once again....has anyone heard an HS? Or do we all just agree it's a marketing scam?

[Miney]

I will admit being tempted once to buy a HS after numerous failed attempts to find a quiet first pressing of Tull's Thick as a Brick.  It took nearly a dozen copies before I struck paydirt. 

Bottom-line... achieving the goal took several months, probably cost over $100, and involved hours of searching, listening, and disappointment.  I don't have any regrets about it (a big part of the thrill is the hunt), but for some who have the means but not the time, I guess I can understand how they'd shell out the extra $$$ to guarantee a solid outcome.

[jsaliga]

And that really is it, Miney.  I wouldn't call what Better Records is doing a scam.  If you just got to have the best pressing of a particular album that you can get your hands on and money is no object...well there you have it.

It all comes down to how one perceives value.  I buy most of my 70s and 80s vinyl in bulk lots.  I pay on average between $1 and $3 per LP.  I don't really care if several of them end of up in the trash because they are no good.  I have bought a lot of great sounding rock that way, and I'm at the point where there is absolutely no way that I would spend more than $10 on any record pressed between 1965 and 1985...period.  I have shelves full of vintage records from the 70s that I would call hot stampers (or more appropriately stated, I would call them superb sounding records with NO physical or audible defects).  I just don't lose any sleep at night worrying about whether my copy of Led Zepp's Houses of the Holy is the best sounding example on the planet.  I'm pretty confident that there is not a single LP in my rock collection that does a disservice to the music.

That said, my passion for the last 25 or so years has been jazz, not rock.  And a lot of the stuff I like is very difficult and costly to find original vinyl pressings.  This is where audiophile jazz reissue labels come into my buying strategy.  For example, a minty original Riverside pressing of Waltz for Debby by Bill Evans will probably set you back between $500 and $800, perhaps more.  Not expensive enough, you say?  Last year an original pressing of Over Cs by the Tommy Flannagan Trio sold for over $2,000.  Most mere mortals have no hope of building a quality jazz library on vinyl from minty original pressings, especially if the Riverside, Blue Note, and Prestige labels are important to you.  The alternative is to pay $30 to $50 for audiophile reissues on 180g vinyl, remastered from the original tapes by someone who knows what they're doing.  Sometimes I think rock fans just don't realize how good they really have it where cost and availability of vintage LPs is concerned.  People whine about paying $5 to $10 for a vintage rock LP or $20 for a 180g reissue.

And to me part of the charm and fun of vinyl is to buy a couple of boxes of vintage LPs and then going through them, cleaning and playing them to find the true gems of the lot.

--Jerome

[Scottdazzle]

I don't mean to bust on your post Scott as I agree with your thoughts about Hot Stampers and the post in general, so please no offense, but the quoted sentence brought on a thought (dangerous for me, I know).  If you're buying a record from him that is not a HS, then by default you must be buying a POS pressing, otherwise it would have made it into some category of HS.  If not POS, then certainly inferior in some way.  I'm sure there is some too clever explanation on his site as to why this isn't so, but it can only detract from the Hot Stamper pro se philosophy.  I could be missing something here, but just wondering... 

The records I bought from Tom were new, not used.  Good service.

[Letitroll98]

The records I bought from Tom were new, not used.  Good service.

Thanks for the reply, if you mentioned you bought new I missed it, I hope I didn't offend.  And I wouldn't make a comment about his service or honesty as far as delivering the advertised product unless I had purchased there.  But I see non-HS used records selling for $25-40 there, are we then to believe we are paying far above market price for inferior product?  I'm open for suggestion here.   

But to continue jsaliga's thoughts replying to drphoto, I'd have to say for general issue records easily found in good condition used, how can you not consider HS's a fraud for the price offered.  If he were asking double or triple market price for selected recordings of excellent quality, I could see the value, but not at tens or hundreds of multiples of market price.  Rare recordings garnering stratospheric prices on the open market that you can resell for a profit are a completely different category than a nice sounding Thick as a Brick for $300.  BTW, I have a Wizards From Kansas sealed original for $3000.00, any takers?     

[TONEPUB]

Maybe the Cisco pressing just doesn't sound great on your system...  Sounds fine here.

[jsaliga]

Or maybe his system is fine and he just thinks the Cisco pressing sucks.

--Jerome

[Nels Ferre]

Nels, are you sure DMM pressings are all digitally sourced?  I have some that give no indication of any digital process and don't sound diggy either.  Others are guilty as charged.

I read they all were, but that may be false information. Right now, I'm listening to the White Album.

My favorite versions in order that I own:

2009 Mono Remaster Digital
1982 UK. Blue Box Vinyl
1982 MoFi Half Speed Master Vinyl
2009 Stereo Remaster Digital
1968 Apple Vinyl
1987 Parlophone Digital

One other thing to point out. Your software is equally as important to your listening enjoyment as your system, if not more so. Tom Port at Better Records knows his vinyl, of that I am sure. I don't believe anyone here disputes that.

Look at the above list. If you think I am either a) deaf or b) nuts, you are helping me make my point. That is my list, with my tastes, on my system. Your list may be in a different order, due to your system and your tastes. With this logic "Hot Stampers" (and all other pressings for that matter) are system and taste dependent. Are you going to lay out that kind  of cash on something so risky?? Not me- you may think differently and of course, are welcome to do so.

[Scottdazzle]

Maybe the Cisco pressing just doesn't sound great on your system...  Sounds fine here.

I believe you, but have you compared it to a good original pressing on your system?  There was no contest in mine.