[Brett Buck]

Why is there an RCA jack on the top near the platter?

   Brett

[eclein]

SPDIF output I believe..

[Wayner]

It's an outlet for a plug-in LED lamp that lights the record surface.

W

[Thebiker]

I can't speak to the entire Music Hall line, but I have had a MMF-7.1 for close to a year now and have been totally satisfied.  It is set up with a Goldring 2400 MM into a modded Jolida JD9 phono stage (dampening material and tube rolling).  The system sings and is dead quiet when it should be.

I believe the MMF-7.1 is only one step down from their flagship and sells for @ $1300 without cartridge, so we are looking at extremely different price points.  JMHO & YMMV.

Walt

[Art_Chicago]

Wayner,

Does Stanton have a phono stage and if so, how does it compare to your "insight" phono?

art

[Wayner]

It does, with a built in A/D converter, but in no way compares to the Insight+ phono board. I have some issues with the built in phono preamp that I will try to resolve today.

After an afternoon with the table, the claims of the motor being twice as powerful as a Technics are perhaps B.S., as the motor drifts when I use my Dishwasher D4 cleaning brush. The Technics holds fairly well when I do this. There are 2 other issues I need to explore more before I make any comments on those.

Wayner

[Minn Mark]

It's cool the Stanton offers three speeds (33/45/78). This escaped my attention when I purchased a Pro-ject Debut III as a second TT for 78 playback. In addition to the TT cost I had to purchase an alternate pulley (33/78). The 'deck works brilliantly, but had to sacrifice 45 playback on this belt drive.  I also own SOTA (33/45) and Technics (33/45) TTs, but had to spend some addtional money to get option for 78 playback--something to fool with in the dead of winter ( I also bought a "lot" of 700 78's)...good execise as one has to jump up and change the disc every 3 minutes !

Thanks for all the great info, Wayner.

M

[Wayner]

Today, a different story. I simply don't understand how something works one day, then the next does not. The table is on it's way back to the Needle Doctor.

This morning I started to work on the other 2 issues I had with the deck, and low and behold, a rather loud hum, this was on the ground lift position as I had listened to the day before (5 LPs worth) and had no problems. What was going on here? I rechecked every connection and still hum. Change the ground lift switch and the hum was even worse.

So I installed the stock Stanton cartridge and it hummed even worse then the Grado. I'll have to assume some kind of internal failure, as I have no other explanation.

Here are the other two issues that I had with the TT. First, it's sound field was determined to be somewhat poor. Perhaps I had become accustomed to the Sony PS-X7 or even my own ARCom, but I wasn't getting that great immense stereo field, no air around the recordings. One suspect is the switch sharing the normal outs with the built in preamp. The specs claim 15db seperation and I believe them. I also suspect that there was a rattle in the tonearm, tho light taping on it could not quiet pin it down.

The other problem was the TTs internal phono preamp, which was poor and also hummed, and the subsequent SPDIF also hummed. I could have jerked the guts out (don't need the phono preamp), but decided that was best to send it back.

Failure again.

Wayner

[ricmon]

Wayner since the the Stanton was a bust why not go up the Project or Music Hall line to the same price point and see what happens.  Maybe this one from Project.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-RPM1-3-Turntable-in-Red

Also maybe other have recommendations in the same price range.

Ric

[rcag_ils]

I am not going to say "I told you so", because my previous posts already made that very, very clear.

The contradiction here is.......

I am listening to Windham Hill Records Sampler '84 and it is a very revealing, dynamic recording. I have already forgot about the table, simply listening to the music.

Totally awesome table!

then........

First, it's sound field was determined to be somewhat poor. Perhaps I had become accustomed to the Sony PS-X7 or even my own ARCom, but I wasn't getting that great immense stereo field, no air around the recordings. One suspect is the switch sharing the normal outs with the built in preamp. The specs claim 15db seperation and I believe them. I also suspect that there was a rattle in the tonearm, tho light taping on it could not quiet pin it down.

I understand that the hum happened after only a day might have been due to this direct drive TT is a cheap piece of crap like many others, whcih is a no brainer for me, why others are cheering on is beyond anyone's comprehension.

Now the second quote sounded like from a very confused individual. First, it said it sounded like crap all of sudden, but with no mention of if it's related to the sudden hum, if it was, then your impression of it's sound would be invalid, because the hum makes it sound like that. Now let's assume that it sounds like crap has nothing to do with the hum, then it means the Stanton is a piece of crap from the start and should not have taken a whole day to find out.

Now you said you believed it had 15 db seperation as it claimed, how do you manage to tell by ear how many db there is? Now rattle in the tonearm, and the light tapping, unless the bearing is so loose that the arm is about to fall off, light tapping would not tell you if the tonearm is rattling or not. Why don't you tilt the table about 30 degrees or so, then swing the arm lightly and see how many swings the arm makes, it would give you some ideas if the bearing is too loose or not.

Can't help you with the hum, you know, maybe a wire fell off inside or something, maybe the precision direct drive motor is not so precise after all.

Now, let's look at the price, someone here mentioned that a new Technics SL-1200 cost about $750, which is $250 more than this great Stanton starter turntable. Does anyone here really think that the extra $250 really would buy much more high end than what the Stanton has to offer? I seriously doubt it. It would just be an heavier piece of crap than the Stanton.

Five hundred bucks doesn't really buy you much in brand new high end, does it?

[rcag_ils]

why not go up the Project or Music Hall line to the same price point and see what happens.  Maybe this one from Project.

The first sentence of the ad says...."The RM-1.3 is designed to look and perform like no other affordable turntable......."

It's like saying "let all go live in the affordable housing....you'll like it" 

However, the Sumiko Pearl cartridge sounds promising......buy it and find out.

[ricmon]

The first sentence of the ad says...."The RM-1.3 is designed to look and perform like no other affordable turntable......."

It's like saying "let all go live in the affordable housing....you'll like it" 

However, the Sumiko Pearl cartridge sounds promising......buy it and find out.

Fair enough.  But lets start with the premise that all or most marketing is hype.  Having said that I am basically trying to open up the range of tt's to try.  so get off my back.  Do you have a TT you would lie to offer up?  BTW I'd love to find some affordable housing here in the DC area.  Any recommendations?  ations?

Ric

[rcag_ils]

Do you have a TT you would lie to offer up?

None in the $500 range and brand new.

For a turntable that cost $500, how much do you think the manufacturing cost would be, and has to offer high quality?

After the designer; marketing dept; ad cost; material and parts cost; distributor, in this case Needledoctor; and the poor guys working in the dim-lighted alley in China; all made their cuts, I would think the manufacturing cost would have to be around $30 per turntable, or less, for these guys to make a profit.

Now how much of high quality that $30 would buy you? Not very much, as you should know by now.

[ricmon]

None in the $500 range and brand new.

For a turntable that cost $500, how much do you think the manufacturing cost would be, and has to offer high quality?

After the designer; marketing dept; ad cost; material and parts cost; distributor, in this case Needledoctor; and the poor guys working in the dim-lighted alley in China; all made their cuts, I would think the manufacturing cost wouldhave to be around $30 per turntable, or less, for these guys to make a profit.

Now how much of high quality that $30 would buy you? Not very much, as you should know by now.

I don't disagree with you about the manufacturing cost.  But remember we are looking for a affordable table that will let the "newbie" get a taste of analog play back before jumping into something more expensive.  I have a Project RM 9.1.  But looking to upgrade as soon as I can afford to.  Not to say that what ever the production cost, it's a nice sounding deck.

your bro
Ric

[rcag_ils]

Correction!

But remember we are looking for a affordable table that will let the "newbie" get a taste of analog play back before jumping into something more expensive.

It has to be affordable and brand new, too, with no setting up.

If you want something of high quality, unless you are willing to spend over $1,000, OK, maybe $999 for something brand new, or buy something used with the risk of it may come to you with the plinth in many pieces.

[TheChairGuy]

Now, let's look at the price, someone here mentioned that a new Technics SL-1200 cost about $750, which is $250 more than this great Stanton starter turntable. Does anyone here really think that the extra $250 really would buy much more high end than what the Stanton has to offer? I seriously doubt it. It would just be an heavier piece of crap than the Stanton.

Five hundred bucks doesn't really buy you much in brand new high end, does it?

If the Made in Japan Technics takes 3 hours total man hours build time (I'm simply guessing at that), then there may be $50-60 (equivalent in yen) for labor in that table.

Meanwhile, in China, the wage in and around Shenzhen (where most of the audio manufacturing is done) is probably $8-$9 a day. So, the labor content cost would likely be in the $4-5 range (equivalent in local currency, the RMB) to make the Stanton.

I've been working with Chinese factories for 13 years now...and the quality of well run factories there is on par with nearly any in the world...that may cost 10x as much in labor per hour. 

As far as weight goes, Wayner already detailed that the SL-1200 weighs 15 lbs less than the Stanton.

Well, Wayner there is now the $399.00 Vestax belt drive to try from Needle Doctor or the $299-odd Audio-Technica AT-PL120 Direct Drive to try. Oye

Then again, after three duds - I'd give it a rest for at least a while

Ya' know, this could be why KAB continues to sell the SL-1200 variants with add-ons, even at $200 more than previously with the recent price hikes.  He sells Vestax and Stanton and would've pushed them at lower costs...but I suspect he already knows the (sound and construction) quality of the SL-1200 is leagues ahead of the others.

The Japanese Yen has appreciated markedly in relation to most world currencies of late...so the price hikes were unavoidable unless that moved production off shore to counter it's effects. 

John

[rcag_ils]

If the Made in Japan Technics takes 3 hours total man hours build time (I'm simply guessing at that), then there may be $50-60 (equivalent in yen) for labor in that table.

Meanwhile, in China, the wage in and around Shenzhen (where most of the audio manufacturing is done) is probably $8-$9 a day. So, the labor content cost would likely be in the $4-5 range (equivalent in local currency, the RMB) to make the Stanton.

I've been working with Chinese factories for 13 years now...and the quality of well run factories there is on par with nearly any in the world...that may cost 10x as much in labor per hour. 

As far as weight goes, Wayner already detailed that the SL-1200 weighs 15 lbs less than the Stanton.

Taking 3 hours to assemble a turntable in Japan, you would have been fired. It takes too long. The workers there are like well-oiled machines, they pump things out in assembly lines by the hundreds, if not thousands, in matter of minutes.

Same in China, they work just as fast at the Stanton factory, except the labor cost is lower, and the quality of product is lower as well.  In other well run factories in the high end audio district in China, I can guarantee that their product aren't cheap.

[TheChairGuy]

Taking 3 hours to assemble a turntable in Japan, you would have been fired. It takes too long. The workers there are like well-oiled machines, they pump things out in assembly lines by the hundreds, if not thousands, in matter of minutes.

Same in China, they work just as fast at the Stanton factory, except the labor cost is lower, and the quality of product is lower as well.  In other well run factories in the high end audio district in China, I can guarantee that their product aren't cheap.

'Assembly' time incorporates all the time to assemble the many parts to each table, the finished table itself (including any testing involved) and packing them up and sealing the boxes.  It's probably a lot closer to 3 hours than an hour or two that you are inferring here.

That one may spin off the assembly line every few minutes...does not adequately convey the total man hours of time that went into product assembly beforehand.   

There probably isn't an average (non-management), semi-skilled factory worker anywhere in China that makes even $4000 a year today.  In a coastal city such as Shenzhen, the wage is probably less than $300 a year (even after a couple years of pay hikes). My factory is 3 hours away and average wages are less - approximately $2500 a year now.

Frankly, we all in the Western world have been major beneficiaries of increasing good products from China and very low costs for decades now.  This Stanton TT that had problems here is more the exception than the rule these days.

Chinese, Japanese, Korean...they all come from Han Chinese stock originally and are more the same than different in work habits and attention to detail.  Any semi-skilled factory in China (anything audiophool related would be in this category) can be every bit as good as one in Japan, or So. Korea, or Taiwan, frankly (or US for that matter).

It's primarily in the management and oversight...and that difference is tightening up rapidly in China these days.

John

[rcag_ils]

Women in the Orient with power screw driver in hand can assemble a turntable, pack it and all in matter of minutes. I did not figure in the labor for milling the platter and all.

Frankly, we all in the Western world have been major beneficiaries of increasing good products from China and very low costs for decades now.  This Stanton TT that had problems here is more the exception than the rule these days.

Benefited from it or not is all subjective, mainly people have no choice but submitting to the Chinese product. If you think the Stanton TT is the exception, then buy 100 of them and find out what the failure rate is.

Chinese, Japanese, Korean...they all come from Han Chinese stock originally and are more the same than different in work habits and attention to detail.  Any semi-skilled factory in China (anything audiophool related would be in this category) can be every bit as good as one in Japan, or So. Korea, or Taiwan, frankly (or US for that matter).

That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Just because the species started around the Yangtze river 6000 years ago that made them all have the same work habits. I am sure around 202BC the Chinese, and Japanese government all agreed to have the same work habit.

The fact is the countries in that realm are used to be, and some still are third world countries with very high population, for them to survive, they have to work fast, and cheap. But they are not stupid (sorry for using the word stupid), if you pay them cheap, they work cheap, you get what you pay for. They are not going to spend 3 hours to assemble a direct drive turntable and sell it to you cheap. No such thing as cheap high quality.

PS, I forgot to mention how corners are cut, remember poison in milk product and candy, and lead paint in toys? How's that for good work habits.

[Minn Mark]

At the < $500 price point, I can wholeheartedly recommend the Pro-ject Debut III (I spent a little more to get the gloss black), and my service from the Needle Doctor has been great.

Cheers,

Mark