Ground

jlupine · « **on:** 27 Feb 2004, 07:50 pm »

I noticed that my electrical system is grounded to a (copper) water pipe, not to a copper rod driven into the ground. Unfortunately, the supply pipe from the the main in the street is lead. Is lead such a lousy electrical conductor that my system isn't actually electrically connected to the earth ?

Jan

rosconey · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 08:49 pm »

i would more concerned about the lead water pipe

you must have a filter.
how far out is the copper before it connects to the lead -inside or out?
alot of older houses grounded that way when someone upgraded the outlets-quick and easy

pjchappy · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 09:12 pm »

Are you sure it's lead? Most likely cast iron.

p

Gordy · « **Reply #3 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 09:19 pm »

You should be able to pick up a ground tester at just about any hardware store for around $5.00. As for lead pipes, are you really sure they're lead? I would've thought lead was known to be a toxin for at least a hundred years or so! Gordy

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 09:42 pm »

In many urban/surburban situations the water pipe serves as the ground rod. Personally I'll take the water pipe any day of the week; it's bigger, and the water system it's connected to is usually a lot bigger than the typical 8 ft. rod stuck in the ground. Consider yourself lucky.
d.b.

jlupine · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Mar 2004, 09:12 pm »

Yes, I'm sure that it's lead. The house is only 26 years old, but that's how it was done here in Chicago. We drink bottled water.

The pipe extends about 12 inches into the basement, where it connects to a valve, to the other side of which a copper pipe is connected.

I'm wondering if the lead pipe compromises my electrical ground.

Jan

Sedona Sky Sound · « **Reply #6 on:** 2 Mar 2004, 09:56 pm »

If you are sure that it is lead and not cast iron, then there should be a copper "jumper" that connects the copper pipe to the copper or cast iron pipe of the city. If it is not there, then just make one. You can get the flexible copper grounding wire from Home Depot for something like $1 per foot. I am sure that there is a "legal" way to do this from a city electrical code perspective but some sandpaper (to flatten/roughen the pipe and ground wire) and a few hose clamps would probably work just fine (just make sure to put something between the hose clamp and the wire so that you do not have dissimilar metals touching).

That being said, don't be surprised if it actually makes your audio system sound worse than before

. If you have a better ground, you have the potential for increased groundloop problems.

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Mar 2004, 10:56 pm »

I would really be surprised if the pipe were lead. I would hope we learned a few things from Roman times as to what NOT kind of pipe we should use for water
J.L. You really should get an electrician, or have an electrician check your work.

"That being said, don't be surprised if it actually makes your audio system sound worse than before . If you have a better ground, you have the potential for increased groundloop problems. "

This quote above really makes me angry because it's obvious that you don't understand the basic principles or electricity and you have no concept of basic electrical safety. On top of that you have advised others to do the same. If I were the moderator of this forum I would throw you out in a heartbeat.
d.b.

Gordy · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Mar 2004, 12:36 am »

I just looked up lead on the World Metals Info Network, it is no better or worse than cast iron for grounding/conductivity. JL, does your wash water turn brown if you add bleach? Just wondering...

Gordy

Lak · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 02:01 pm »

Most new homes have an electric service box hooked up to a copper water line and to an 8' ground rod. It should not be hard to hook up your electrical service to a ground rod. If you're not comfortable with the idea, contact an electrician.

Sedona Sky Sound · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 08:47 pm »

In addition to calling me on the phone this morning to "set me right" on how electricity works (a subject in which I have some expertise myself), Dan Banquer has made at least one libel statement (at least that I have found so far) on one of the other forums against me. He seems to be extremely passionate and overzealous on his "electrical safety" campaign.

I am still a little confused as to what I said that he objects to:

"That being said, don't be surprised if it actually makes your audio system sound worse than before. If you have a better ground, you have the potential for increased groundloop problems. "

As far as I can tell, that is an entirely factual statement. From the "talking to" he gave me this morning, I can only guess that he is upset that I did not implicitly say that "having an earth ground should be safer in the unlikely event that your equipment develops a short". Yes, from an ultimate safety perspective (but not necessarily a sound perspective), using 3-prong plugs with a full earth-ground is preferred. I never said otherwise.

The views of this website pretty well correspond with my own when it comes to electrical safety in an audio system:
http://www.altavistaaudio.com/hum.html

I am a firm believer in safety but as with most things also believe it should be viewed in a larger context. There are millions of homes in the US that currently do not have an earth-ground (my mother's home being one of them). Just as I would not tell people with older cars to "sell them or put in an airbag", I would not tell someone whose home is not fully earth-grounded to spend the $$$ to re-run all the wiring in their house. However, in situations in which someone is intentionally defeating a safety feature, I try to do my best job to explain the potential benefits and risks. Using this information, they can then make up their own mind whether it is worth it to them.

In the original post, I can only assume that the house was built to whatever safety code was in place at the time. My experience is that city safety codes have varied over time and are extremely inconsistent (i.e., I have seen some codes that require two grounding rods and other that expressly prohibit them). As such, it is up to the owner to decide if they wish to modify their electrical system or remain with what they have. Since this an audio forum, I assumed that Jan would want to know what to expect in her audio system if the electrical modifications were made.

Moderator, feel free to move both of our posts to the appropriate forum if you wish.

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 10:23 pm »

You may wish to refer to the June 1995 AES Journal on Grounding. You may also wish to refer to "Reducing Noise in Electronic Equipment" by Henry Ott. Both are excellent references and give excellent examples on how make full use of earth ground to reduce both noise, interfence and prevent ground loops.
I have in my lab applied the above to get an unbalanced system to work like a balanced system; no hum and no hiss, just a touch of white noise. It can be done; and most of it is outlined by Henry Ott some 30 years ago. I claim no patent or anything special.
It appears the high end audio electronics is stuck somewhere in the 1980's, I'm not. If that's a case for libel, than so be it.
d.b.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 10:56 pm »

Let me add further comment on grounding. According to some of the research that Bill Whitlock of Jensen transformer has done, about 30 to 50 people die each year to lifted earth grounds. There really is no need for this.
As I explained on the phone this morning when you have two components( such as a pre amp and power amp) that have their audio signal ground earth grounded and are connected together using an unbalanced connection you will have a ground loop. There is a safe way of doing this. You use a line level transformer such as the ISO Max from Jensen or something of the equivalent. The ground loop will be broken by the transformer and you will lower hum and hiss. BTW: The Jensen transformers do offer RCA inputs and outputs.
The present grounding practices done for unbalanced audio are over 15 years out of date and is one of the major causes for not only compatibility problems, but excess noise and interference.
There are other ways, and if you want me to explain in full another alternative, I will do so.
If the above is libel then so be it.
d.b.

JohnR · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Mar 2004, 12:02 am »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Julian's suggestion was to improve the ground by adding a copper connection to bypass the (supposedly lead) pipe.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Mar 2004, 12:13 am »

John R;
That is something that the plumber and electrician need to decide to follow the local applicable electrical codes.
d.b.

Pirate · « **Reply #15 on:** 8 Mar 2004, 02:14 am »

Lead is not used for water pipes! Its toxic for human consumption. You have copper or galvanized pipes. Copper pipe systems may have pipes that were assembled with leaded solder. But this is no longer used for water pipes. A concern with leaded soldered pipes is standing water will absorb some of the lead. Running the tap a few minutes is recommended to empty the line of the standing water before using for cooking or drinking.

Unless you have made illegal changes to your electrical box or plumbing that would compromise the ground I would not worry to much about it.

DeadFish · « **Reply #16 on:** 8 Mar 2004, 02:37 am »

Ugh..

First off Pirate, lead isn't used *now* for water pipes, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't necessarilly been, either by old plumbing code or perhaps when there was no enforced plumbing code, or plain when someone wasn't looking. When lead solder was being used, it was thought that water passing the lead often enough would not leech the lead. I bet sometime passed, city mains might have been thought in the same light. but I digress.

Having chased 'best sound' in my house with 3 ungrounded circuits, I've put in new service with 8' ground rod to local code and 25 grounded circuits. (Okay, since I was upgrading....) I tried hospital grade outlets with a dedicated ground rod pounded into my basement floor. Yes, it did make a difference in a positive manner. BUT...out of code it was, and should my house have an electrical fire or someone gets killed with my modified grounding, my insurability was surely in question.
That was the bottom line for me. I made it 'legal' again.
Time to find something else to tweak...
If you are worried about really having a ground to use, it cannot cost that much to have a certified electrician check it.

Regards,
DeadFish

Pirate · « **Reply #17 on:** 8 Mar 2004, 05:51 am »

DeadFish,

The chances of lead pipe being used on a 26 year old home is slim to none. Federal regulation and building codes have known since the 1960's about lead. I do agree that an illegal connection could be possible but would immediately send up a red flag if properly inspected by the local water agency

.

A simple device used to check for properly wired and grounded circuits can be purchased at your local hardware store for around $3.00. Just plug it in and read the lights.

DeadFish · « **Reply #18 on:** 8 Mar 2004, 08:18 am »

Hey Pirate,

I am pleased to see that you are a contractor, so you have some knowing of where you speak. I used to be a sub-contractor for electrical and plumbing, so I hope that gives me some credibility.
You missed my point in my (small) attempts at humor that although there may be codes prohibiting some practices, that does not mean they don't get done, and I am sure you have seen that somewhere.
The one thing that the master that taught me that stuck was 'your works stays behind to talk about you.'
Some people don't care, when they want it done.

I've seen several words in this discussion such as "assume" and "simple", and it disturbed me. I read a post from a guy that asked questions of his "assumed" 26 year old house, with 'assumed' lead pipe ground.
I guess we assumed it was inspected too. I'm not gonna call the man a liar about where he lives. There seem to be enough inconsistencies, that I might consult a professional if I didn't know what was what.
And to say it is 'simple' to poke around in his electricity with a test light might be misleading or dangerous. Hey, I've had my fair share of getting zapped and I was supposed to know what I was doing!

Everyone has their specialties and I have friends that I wouldn't dare suggest their own electric. I'd feel guilty forever if something happened wrong. Now, what about strangers on the 'net?

Safety first, fella! Hi Fi ain't THAT important to try and DIY electric and getting it wrong.

I'm glad I didn't DIY my gall bladder extraction.

Okay, thanks for letting me rant. I'm sure the 'nurse' will be here soon with the medications and garters...

Regards,
DeadFish

PS. Please don't let me kill this spirited discussion!

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #19 on:** 8 Mar 2004, 01:25 pm »

"If you are worried about really having a ground to use, it cannot cost that much to have a certified electrician check it. "
Given the prices on some of the cables out there, certified electricians are looking very cost effective. Given the risks of liabilty, certified electricians are a bargain.
Thanks for the post!
d.b.