[mmetts]

Hi!  I've recently been in the market for my first DAC.  Judging from the huge selection of products available and the amount of discussion all over the web, it seems this a question that others frequently face.

In any case, my priorities are

1)  Process the signal from my CD player (needs coax) and my Airport Express (needs Toslink).  Eventually, I imagine higher resolution sources but these 2 are my immediate concerns.  I get the impression that almost any recent DAC would provide a dramatic audible improvement for these sources.

2)  Price and medium-term viability.  I'd like not to replace this unit within the next 3 years or so though I understand that the technology in a DAC is changing faster (probably) than any other aspect of my stereo.  Though I’ve said that almost any DAC I buy will probably improve the sound coming from the 2 devices I’ve mentioned, I’d still like to get the most natural and neutral sound for my money.

3)  Flexibility.  I need at least 1 coax and 1 Toslink right now and a way to switch between them.  Also, I’d like to have XLR outputs.

4)  Reasonably compliments the equipment I already have:  McIntosh C2300 preamp, McIntosh MC252 amp, McIntosh MR88 tuner, B&W 804 speakers, Adcom GCD-700 cdplayer.  And, of course the aforementioned Airport Express.  I will likely add a music server in the next year or so but I’m sensitive to just blowing money left and right – i.e. I have trouble swallowing $8,000 for a music server/DAC.

I’ve considered (but not listened to):

Benchmark DAC-1
Music Hall DAC 25.2 (now apparently 25.3)  -- I understand the XLR outputs don’t use the tube stage.
Van Alstine Insight EC DAC – XLR outputs are extra.

So far, I like the notion of the Van Alstine DAC but don’t have clear positive reasons for getting it.  I realize that these 3 (configured as I’d prefer) represent a range in price from about $600 to about $1500.  Which leads to my questions.

Which should I buy?  One of these?  Which others should I consider?  Comparing the Van Alstine to the Benchmark, for instance, do you think the Van Alstine would sound significantly better and/or represents a better value?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and insights (please forgive any ignorance I’ve demonstrated just now),
Mike

[rollo]

  You have some nice gear. The Mac housesound would have a great synergy with Ayre, or any DAC that is considered neutral in character. Bryston and Benchmark come to mind as well.
  With the quality of your gear I would not fool with the inexpensive DACs.


charles

[mathgeek97]

With the Apple AirportExpress, I would avoid the ESS Sabre based DACs.  It's seems that a lot of folks have had issues with that combination (my understanding is that it's more the fault of the horrible jitter of the AEx 802.11n version.  If you have an older AEx 802.11g, it's supposed to work with the ESS Sabre DACSs).

I personally use an AirPortExpress -> Audio by Van Alstine Vision EC DAC, which uses the Wolfson 8742 chip set, without issue.

MH DAC 25.3 uses the latest TI chipset, so you might have to look around for somebody with experience using it with the AEx.

[srb]

With the Apple AirportExpress, I would avoid the ESS Sabre based DACs.  It's seems that a lot of folks have had issues with that combination (my understanding is that it's more the fault of the horrible jitter of the AEx 802.11n version.  If you have an older AEx 802.11g, it's supposed to work with the ESS Sabre DACSs).

That's correct, but if you prefer the sound of one of the ESS Sabre DACs, don't let that deter you.  The older Airport Express wireless G models (A1084) are plentiful on eBay for ~ $50.
 
Steve

[mmetts]

@Rollo, thanks for the compliments on my stuff.  For Bryston, do you mean the BDA-1?  Any idea how much one of those costs?  I think the Arye is out since it appears that that only has a USB input.  My computers are not all that close to my stereo rack -- old school I suppose.

[mmetts]

re:  ESS and Airport.  thanks.  I think the Airport Express hardware deteriorates with time.  I used to have an all -g network including some Airport Express -g units.  But, these started to have more and more drop outs and interferance issues with time.  If/until I get my house wired for CAT6, I'll not go down that road.

So, would the Wyred DAC2 be an example of an ESS Sabre DAC?  This one was recommended by another member to look at.  It seems to have a lot of features.  Thoughts on it anyone?

[highfilter]

re:  ESS and Airport.  thanks.  I think the Airport Express hardware deteriorates with time.  I used to have an all -g network including some Airport Express -g units.  But, these started to have more and more drop outs and interferance issues with time.  If/until I get my house wired for CAT6, I'll not go down that road.

So, would the Wyred DAC2 be an example of an ESS Sabre DAC?  This one was recommended by another member to look at.  It seems to have a lot of features.  Thoughts on it anyone?

I've had the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 for awhile now, and I'm loving it. Very clean and musical with tons of detail, it also has enough connections for anything you want to throw at it. A few other people have said that it holds its own until you get into the $6k or higher DACs. I know I won't be looking for a new DAC anytime soon. 6moons also has their review on it if you want some other comparisons.

[Stu Pitt]

A few forum friends on another forum have Mac components and use the Bryston BDA-1 with very good results.  Its a fantastic DAC and built like a tank.  Highly recommended from me.

I'm waiting on a new DAC from Rega.  Its due out within the next few months, but UK guys say its due out within the next few weeks.  The Rega DAC reportedly will be better than the Saturn.  It'll reportedly cost about $1k.  I know a few guys who've used Rega CDPs with Mac gear with excellent results too.  I've heard the Mac/Rega combo several times and really like how it sounds.

Just some food for thought.  I agree with not bothering with the lower priced DACs.  People rave about the Cambridge DACmagic, Musical Fidelity V-DAC, etc.  They sound pretty good, but no where near your level of gear.  If someone tells you otherwise, don't believe the hype.

[rwolters]

Hi Stu Pit,

I wonder if you could say a bit more about the upcoming Rega DAC. Any chance that it would be related to the DAC in the Rega Isis CD player? I heard that $9k player in very high end system and thought it sounded really great. To be able to buy just the DAC portion of that player would be worth considering, especially at $1k.

Bob

[srb]

re:  ESS and Airport.  thanks.  I think the Airport Express hardware deteriorates with time.  I used to have an all -g network including some Airport Express -g units.  But, these started to have more and more drop outs and interferance issues with time.  If/until I get my house wired for CAT6, I'll not go down that road.

I have three Airport Express that have been in use for two years and they work fine so far (knock on wood?).  But (to me) a wired connection is preferable and that's what I use for my main system.  The Airport Express' are used in other more casual locations.

So, would the Wyred DAC2 be an example of an ESS Sabre DAC? This one was recommended by another member to look at.  It seems to have a lot of features. Thoughts on it anyone?

The DAC2 does have a lot of features for the money, including remote controlled switching, HT bypass input and very robust power supply.  But you will most likely need to pick up an Airport Express wireless 'G', if that's what you're going to use for now.  I don't know if any W4S users have complained about dropouts, but since Peachtree Nova and Eastern Electric Minimax Tube DAC users have (both ESS Sabre), it is likely a potential problem for the W4S if used with the Airport Express 'N'.
 
The Bryston BDA-1 you mentioned retails for $2,150 and I'm pretty sure the remote is optional.  The cheapest I have seen a used one for is $1600.  If you forsee playing high-resolution files AND using USB, it's USB connection is limited to 16bit/48KHz.
 
As you noted, the DAC landscape is constantly changing.  Always a new one coming around the corner.  But I would have to agree with Stu.  I had two mid-priced DACs, and I found the MHDT Paradisea tube DAC to be lacking in detail, and the Stello DA100 Signature to only be marginally better than the DACs in my Rotel receiver, which is what I am presently using.  I am looking for an external DAC again, but this time I'll pass over the midrange offerings.
 
Steve

[roscoeiii]

Cary XCiter and Musical Fidelity M1 are also both worth looking into. Both sold by Music Direct I believe so you could try 'em in your system for up to 30 days. AVA  also  has a great return policy.

[mchuckp]

OP:  Make sure you give your desire to have (or don't care about) hi rez audio.  Not all DACs will support this.  I have a W4S DAC-1 and I can pretty much throw anything at it.  I do 24/96 downloads and bluray movies/concerts. 

If you really only care about CDs, then their is plenty of options.  If you want Hi rez, your options become smaller.  But there does seem to be a lot of new DACs coming out that do support these formats.

I don't know about the other DACs you mentioned, but I do know the AVA DAC will only support hi rez if you remove the cover and move a jumper.  Then if you do this, it won't support 44.1.

I concur with what a few others have said.  If you are going to get a DAC get a GOOD one.

[mmetts]

Wow, this is even more complicated than I thought.  DACs are coming out of the woodwork!  So, one of you said something to the effect that I should get a "GOOD" one.  I like that.  But, how to decide?  Frankly, I'm mostly not the kind of guy who wants to try 3 or 4 of these things sending them back one at a time until I arrive at the right one.

I looked at the Cary XCiter and the Musical Fidelity M1 on Music Direct just now and the features and specs look good but those 2 are $1,000 apart.  More and more, I'm thinking "good" and price in this end of the spectrum are all that closely related.

I do care about hi res sources but I don't have any right now unless I drag my OPPO out of the TV room or my computer out of my office to hook them up which is not likely.

I'm not encouraged by the limitations the ESS family potentially has wrt Airport streams so I think the W4S DAC2 might be out.

The Bryston is kind of an unattractive looking unit (sorry that does matter at least a little to me), the price might be tipping the scale and the more I think about it, the more I DON'T want to cut a brink 'n mortar retailer in on any of this.

While I'm at it, I noticed that the Cary does not have XLR outputs.  Is this a controversial area like cables?  i.e., are there those that think XLR outputs don't add anything and so they don't need them?  I've kind of assuming that whatever I get should have these since that's "the way to do it".  Thoughts?

Thanks again to everyone for all the responses, this is really helping.  I've heard the AVA Insight compared favorably to the Bryston elsewhere.  I might be able to forgive it for hi res jumper -> 44.1 downgrade.  Should I?

So, back to the Musical Fidelity M1DAC.  This thing is $650 and it looks to have a great feature set.  Does anyone think this is THE ONE?  Is it a "good" one?  Is it beyond the AVA Insight in terms of musical dynamics and neutrality?

[mmetts]

Also, elsewhere folks are keen on the Cambridge Audio DACMagic.  How does that compare (in the context I've supplied) with the AVA Insight and/or the Musical Fidelity M1DAC?

Btw, I realize that not everyone or possibly anyone has heard all the DACs and can deliver a cogent reply to every comparison I ask about.  Sorry if that's tedious.  I'm more than happy to listen to rumors and trash talk about these units before I buy one as well...

thanks,
Mike

[konut]

With the DAC landscape, such as it is, it can drive you kind of nuts! With the quality of your present gear, it kind of demands a top tier DAC. I compared Bryston and AVA and ended up getting the Bryston. Thoroughly enjoying it. The only other DAC that has come out since that, to my way of thinking, even remotely compares is the W4S. What they both share is a class A output stage, which I think is what really separates the "men from the boys" when it comes to higher quuality DACs.

[Stu Pitt]

Everything about the Rega DAC is speculation at this point.  There's been no official information released.  Someone on another forum posted what looks like a leaked Rega release...

Expect great things from the REGA DAC
A great deal of work has gone into total elimination of noise from the PC power supply. Identified as a major problem during development, removal of this noise ensures the REGA DAC achieves the highest performance audio from lossless files. The Rega DAC is a 24-bit 32 to 192K digital to analogue converter incorporating an enhanced version of the Saturn digital to analogue converter circuit using a pair of Wolfson WM8742 DAC IC’s with 5 user selectable digital filters. With two isolated Co-axial, and two Toslink SPDIF 24bit 192K inputs and an isolated 32/44.1/48K 16bit USB input for use with personal a computer. The USB input incorporates a PLL based clock for low jitter signal recovery. There is an isolated Co-axial and Toslink digital output, which mirrors any of the selected inputs. The digital output data has passed through the receiver PLL and thus has been re-clocked and cleaned-up. The input stage comprises of a Wolfson WM8805 digital receiver with a high stability low jitter reference clock driving the receiver PLL, we have used the same oscillator as used in the Isis CD players. The receiver, PLL and oscillator have their own dedicated power supplies. The DAC stage comprises of pair of parallel-connected Wolfson WM8742 DAC’s, which are driven via a buffer stage, which ensures the integrity of the data being fed to the DAC IC’s – this is a similar arrangement to that used in the Isis.


It looks pretty legit to me.  Not sure where the guy got it from.  Reading that, it looks like its got parts from the Isis and Saturn.  No high res from the USB input (very few do).

If you're not in a hurry for a new DAC, this one may be worth waiting for to check out.

I think too many people get hung up on the whole high res thing.  How many albums are available as high res downloads?  I highly doubt high res will become the standard for mainstream music any time soon.  Not only that, but even with high res, how much difference will it make for 99% of the stuff out there?  Do you think the studios/artists will abandon the loudness wars, start recording properly, and offer audiophile quality high res music?  I doubt it, but that's just me.  If you have a bunch of high res stuff on your computer, that's another story.  I'm pretty sure there's a way to download high res stuff, burn it to some sort of disc, and have it playable through a DAC that does high res from coax and optical.

The DACmagic and the like are great for the money, but no where near the level of your gear IMO.  Make a step that counts, not a stop gap step that'll have you wanting to upgrade in a few months.  That'll save you some money in the long run.

Expanding on what konut said, there's more to a DAC than the chip used.  Output stages, power supplies, etc. have a big impact on sound.  Bryston does this very well, as I'm sure others do too.  My 15 year old Theta DAC has discreet outputs and a solid power supply.  It sounds better to my ears than the new entry level DACs out there that have the latest and greatest chips.  It was Theta's entry level DAC at the time, and retailed for about $800 or so, so its not like I'm comparing an old $5000 top of the line DAC to today's entry level stuff.  Compared to today's well made DACs with the newest chips, its not nearly as good.  Compared to today's inexpensive DACs with the newest chips, it shows them a trick or two.

[rwolters]

Thanks Stu Pitt,

That was great information on the new Rega DAC, even if it may not turn out to be totally accurate. I'm glad to know that it's coming and I think it may be worth waiting for. The fact that it's pulling some of the design from the Isis is encouraging. With the addition of an M2Tech Hi-Face or EVO, it might provide a very good, long term solution.

Bob

[NekoAudio]

But, how to decide?  Frankly, I'm mostly not the kind of guy who wants to try 3 or 4 of these things sending them back one at a time until I arrive at the right one.

I'll second roscoeiii's advice about trying some out because DACs can sound so completely different and the specs aren't really enough to tell you what's what. Also, one person's preference of X being better than Y might not match what you're looking for.

If it's just you feel weird about taking companies up on their trial periods, I'd tell you not to worry about it. That's why those trial periods are there. Even better is to arrange it so all the DACs you are considering are in your house at the same time so you can do side-by-side comparisons.

[Stu Pitt]

I e-mailed the Sound Organisation (Rega's US distributor) last week inquiring about the DAC.  They said 'it should be out within a few months, no specs or price confirmed.'  They can't speculate or release any unofficial info, but its encouraging to know.  I've been waiting for a Rega DAC for over a year.  I posted a thread on Pink Fish Media inquiring about it.  Its mainly a UK based site (closer to the source), and I think a few guys are dealers.  They said Rega has informed dealers that it'll be here very soon and they have a working prototype.  A few said they should be out any day now.  The target price is 500 GBP (about $1k US).

I love what my Apollo does for my system (Bryston B60 integrated and Audio Physic Yara bookshelves).  Had I not been captivated by my Apple TV as a music server, I'd be very content with the Apollo and not looked back, forward or sideways.  Its an amazing CDP IMO.  In order to move on from my ancient Theta DAC, I need something better than my Apollo while maintaing its toe tapping-ness that doesn't break the bank.  The Bryston BDA-1 and Naim DAC sound excellent, but they're way over my budget.  The Rega DAC at $1k (hopefully) ain't cheap, but its managible after I sell my Apollo.  If it sounds at least as good as the Apollo, I'll be all over it.  I'm pretty confident that it'll sound a good bit better.

I've heard the Apollo (and Saturn) in several Mac systems.  Sounds phenominal to my ears.  I can honestly say I haven't heard it sound bad in any good system.  The Apollo even made my NAD 320BEE sound great before I moved on to my B60.

[mmetts]

Thanks, folks.  Esp. Stu Pitt.  I'm going to call up the Bryston dealer just up the road and see if they have a BDA-1 hanging around.  Maybe they'll let me take one home.  Uncertain if I'm willing to wait for the new Rega.