[JLM]

CT,

I'm sure that 60 Hz peak is room/speaker related and would be classic application for EQ.  Frankly if I had that much AC leakage, I'd be selling power (or running for my life).   

[turkey]

  Saying that I believe we all would like the best price. So wether E-bay audiogon, private or dealer its the price. A good deal is a good deal.

I want a fair price.

I also don't shop solely based on price. I try to consider service too.

[bigjppop]

You know, this is a very timely thread for me.  I recently moved to Berlin from Tokyo and every time I land in a new city I try and check out the local HiFi shops to see what's shakin'.  I stopped by a pretty well known shop in Berlin three days ago; they had a great website and their  setup looked absolutely fantastic (18 separate "listening studios" decked out with about 20 different brands).  I was excited.  I needed to pick up a pair of speaker stands as well so I thought this would be a great chance.

Within about 5 minutes I was very aware why I stopped shopping at B&M stores.  The minute these guys  heard I was only looking for speaker stands (and wasn't interested in the $800.00 one they had sitting up front) they didn't want anything to do with me.  I had brought a book of CD's with hopes of listening to some new stuff but that wasn't going to happen.  They actually gave me crap because they had to go to the back to pull some stands out for me.  No offer to even take them out of the box to show me. 

Now, I'll be the first to admit, the Germans are NOT famous for their customer service, but this kind of experience is not unique to this store.  I can't figure out dealers of hifi equipment.  I don't think I have ever had a good experience at a dealer.  Most act like they are put out when they have to show you something and if you have questions or want to actually sit at listen to something they act as if you're wasting their time.  Nothing frosts me more than a salesmen that rushes me through a demo when there is a COMPLETELY empty store!  If you were swamped with customers, OK, but come on...

I'm still looking for that mythical B&M store where you can "hang out, listen to music, talk gear, and enjoy yourself."  Basically an AudioCircle in a box.  I've never seen a place like that and until I do, I think I'm pretty much done with retail shopping.  I came home and told my wife what a crappy experience I'd had and that I've decided that if I can't buy it online, I'm not interested.  The ONLY plus I can see to a dealer is the chance to hear something before you buy it.  Service and support seems to be MUCH better from just about everyone manufacturer I've come across here at AC (Jim Salk mentioned above is a PRIME example).  With more and more internet companies offering 30 day in home trial periods, even the dealer's only edge is slowly being eroded.

So yeah, I'm done with B&M audio shops (and really pretty much B&M everything).  My postman doesn't so much care for my internet shopping, but what can you do...

[KnowTalent]

When dealing with B&Ms, I generally know what dealer pricing is and I'm not willing to pay more than cost +10% especially when I'm buying something and all the dealer is doing is taking my money and wheeling the handtruck to my vehicle or drop shipping to my home address....paying more for such a transaction is kinda like tipping for Chinese carryout imo.

If a dealer offers free home delivery/set-up, pick-up (in case of repair situations), has on-site repair capabilities and offers demo/loaner services...and I have need of such services....then I am willing to pay more by means of additional service charges as per needed. I am not willing to take a MSRP frontend hit to support services I have no need for.

Given the decline in popularity of the "Stereo" medium (and the rise of the Ipod generation)
it seems the odds of running a financially successful B&M operation are quite dismal unless located in a large "cosmopolitan" zip code such as Atlanta, Chicago, NYC, San Francisco, etc...where the "demand" and money are geographically concentrated.

For the rest of us I think online business models such as Audio Advisor and Crutchfield are most likely the future.

Though I'm not holding my breath I also hope to eventually see more manufacturer direct sales from established "boutique" brands such as Ayre, Boulder, Bryston, McIntosh as their existing MSRPs are stupid expensive and I would chance to guess the majority of aphiles need little "help" in system set-up and can deal with transporting a box to UPS if any service repairs are needed.

[ricmon]

I'm still looking for that mythical B&M store where you can "hang out, listen to music, talk gear, and enjoy yourself."  Basically an AudioCircle in a box.  I've never seen a place like that and until I do, I think I'm pretty much done with retail shopping.  I came home and told my wife what a crappy experience I'd had and that I've decided that if I can't buy it online, I'm not interested.  The ONLY plus I can see to a dealer is the chance to hear something before you buy it.  Service and support seems to be MUCH better from just about everyone manufacturer I've come across here at AC (Jim Salk mentioned above is a PRIME example).  With more and more internet companies offering 30 day in home trial periods, even the dealer's only edge is slowly being eroded.

bigjppop  the next time you're in the DC metro area try Deja VU Audio in McLean, Va and JS Audio in Bethesda, Md.  I have fond memories of setting in both of these stores for hours and only purchased from one.  They both really indulged me until I found what I was looking for.

Ric

[rollo]

When dealing with B&Ms, I generally know what dealer pricing is and I'm not willing to pay more than cost +10% especially when I'm buying something and all the dealer is doing is taking my money and wheeling the handtruck to my vehicle or drop shipping to my home address....paying more for such a transaction is kinda like tipping for Chinese carryout imo.

If a dealer offers free home delivery/set-up, pick-up (in case of repair situations), has on-site repair capabilities and offers demo/loaner services...and I have need of such services....then I am willing to pay more by means of additional service charges as per needed. I am not willing to take a MSRP frontend hit to support services I have no need for.

Given the decline in popularity of the "Stereo" medium (and the rise of the Ipod generation)
it seems the odds of running a financially successful B&M operation are quite dismal unless located in a large "cosmopolitan" zip code such as Atlanta, Chicago, NYC, San Francisco, etc...where the "demand" and money are geographically concentrated.

For the rest of us I think online business models such as Audio Advisor and Crutchfield are most likely the future.

Though I'm not holding my breath I also hope to eventually see more manufacturer direct sales from established "boutique" brands such as Ayre, Boulder, Bryston, McIntosh as their existing MSRPs are stupid expensive and I would chance to guess the majority of aphiles need little "help" in system set-up and can deal with transporting a box to UPS if any service repairs are needed.

 very well said. agree 100%


charles

[Quiet Earth]

I'm still looking for that mythical B&M store where you can "hang out, listen to music, talk gear, and enjoy yourself."

Like so many other things in life, it might take more than one visit.   That kind of friendly, hang out and chat at the barber shop environment develops over a period of many visits. You should go back and visit the store and hang out anyway. Go there just because you are having fun and killing time, not because you are in a hurry to buy anything. Eventually you might make a friend or two. You might even hear something that surprises you. Most dealers understand this and that's why they want you to hang out. But dealers are real people, not computer programs, so you have to give and take just like you do with your other friends.

Back in the day when we had five really good stores in our area, there was only one store that I didn't feel comfortable hanging out in. So, I just didn't go to that one.

I personally would not want to be selling anything in an environment where the customer insists that he only pay "X" percent over cost because of what he knows from the internet.  The internet has made armchair experts out of most of us, myself included. We don't really know what it takes to run a successful retail business day in and day out for many years. I respect those of you who can do it, whether B&M or internet sales. You have a right to be paid for your work just like any other profession.

[KnowTalent]

I personally would not want to be selling anything in an environment where the customer insists that he only pay "X" percent over cost because of what he knows from the internet. 

Most resellers fear the educated consumer! 
what would you expect given the plethora of available info AND a shrinking market segment?

imo resellers need to diversify and/or have enough product lines that allow them to move volume.

Most sucessful resellers I know of make 90%+ of their profit on AV purchases and accompanying install labor This should allow for better pricing on 2 channel hard goods    ...besides, of the AV crowd, many of them are not as educated therefore they can more easily be fleeced of cash through magic wire sales. evil imo, but buyer beware.

There are purchasing groups resellers can join that allow them to get volume discounts which should translate to more competitive pricing while still making a profit.
Also, I would think a reseller or reseller network should be able to provide online services where the customer can buy direct online and have the product drop shipped directly from the manufacturer for a further discount...this would alleviate inventory stocking costs and therefore should translate to no loss of profit if managed properly.

imo, the reason most B&Ms go out of business is they (and manufacturers!) are unwilling to change outdated business models and that is not my problem.  Adapt and overcome

Whether it's Music Direct or Audio Advisor....where I can buy new open box specials, dealer demos, returns, etc... for as much as MSRP -35%, Manufacturers such as McIntosh offering generous price discounts for trade-in/trade-up programs, etc... imo there's enough profit to go around if the manufacturers and dealers work together. 

[wilsynet]

I'm still looking for that mythical B&M store where you can "hang out, listen to music, talk gear, and enjoy yourself."  Basically an AudioCircle in a box.  I've never seen a place like that and until I do, I think I'm pretty much done with retail shopping.

Audible Arts in Campbell, CA and the Analog Room in San Jose, CA are both like this.

There are a number of people who go to Audible Arts and just hang out there on the weekend listening to music.  Same with the Analog Room.  I'm not one of those people, but I thought it was interesting.

The rule that i use is that if I audition gear at a dealer and I decide to buy it then I must buy it from the dealer I used for the audition.

[TheChairGuy]

The rule that i use is that if I audition gear at a dealer and I decide to buy it then I must buy it from the dealer I used for the audition.

Me, too - exactly.

That's one of the reasons I avoid B & M dealers...I feel too obligated to buy something from them after wasting their time.

I was truly friends with my dealer on Long Island some 20 years ago...so I never felt such obligation.  But, now, unless I have bought something from them previously....it; doesn't feel right to dilly dally around with them.

That's just me (and, it appears, wilysnet ), I'm not trying to foist my moral code on anyone.  I just found it interesting that someone else thought like me on the subject.

John

[Letitroll98]

I'm still looking for that mythical B&M store where you can "hang out, listen to music, talk gear, and enjoy yourself."  Basically an AudioCircle in a box.  I've never seen a place like that and until I do, I think I'm pretty much done with retail shopping.

I'll add a couple more to this list if yourself or others are in the Philadelphia area.  Stereo Trading Outlet in Jenkintown and Quest for Sound in Bensalem.  I've been buying from STO for 20 years and although they have changed with the times to become more of a HT shop, they still offer a friendly environment.  I haven't purchased anything from Quest for Sound yet and still get treated like a long time customer, they also have an excellent repair shop.  I'll throw in a shout out for Audiolab in Oxford Valley, a shadow of what they once were, but I still have a soft spot for them. 

[boycephoto]

I live in a smaller marketing area of about 250K people.  At one time there was 5 hi end stores in the area.  Now I have to drive at least 100 miles one way to find a brick and mortar shop.  I rely more on the internet and places like Audiogon more than ever. 
Dave

[Stu Pitt]

I live in the NYC area and have come across some horrible dealers, but also met one or two good ones.   In buying pretty much anything, I think it's best to buy from who you think deserves your business most.

I won't buy something I don't like.  No matter how good the dealer is.  Dealers tend to forget this.   They get worked up when they spend a lot of time setting up a demo and you tell them it's not what you had in mind and thank them for their time.  It seems elementary that customers won't buy what they don't like, but these guys forget that.

There's a moron who I made the mistake of stopping in his shop twice.  He's down the street and has some gear I'm interested in.  First time I went in was to hear an NAD 320BEE.  He made it pretty obvious that it wasn't worth his time to let me hear it.  It was set up in one of his rooms, so it's not like he had to do anything more than hand me a remote and walk away.  I was the only one in the shop at the time too.  He told me to buy a Marantz receiver because "at that price point they're all crap." He didn't like it when I asked him why he sells crap. 

I bought a 320BEE from a dealer down the road who was great. 

A few years later I was looking for new speakers, and the idiot was the only dealer of the brand I wanted.   I convinced myself that maybe the guy was having a bad day.  I've said and done some things in the past that I shouldn't have too.

I went in and asked him if he had the specific speaker (Audio Physic Yata monitors).  After asking me why I wanted to go from towers to monitors - my room was too small for my then towers - he brings me into a room and demos Revel F12 towers that ate twice as big and have more drivers than my speakers did.  Next he puts on B&W 685 towers that are still bigger than the speakers I have.  I tell him they sound nice, but I want to hear the Yaras.  He makes a face and brings me into another room.  He proceeds to play the biggest Maggies in the shop. 

As I was walking out, I saw the Yaras set up in the 3rd room.  I guess he didn't think they were for me.  It wasn't like he was trying to sell me more expensive speakers - they were all within the same price range. 

I found the Yaras on Audiogon, and bought them for a price I knew I could resell them for if I didn't like them.  3 years later, they're the best speaker I've heard for their full retail price.  I'm glad it worked out that way. 

But I've found 2 dealers who do things the way they should be done.   My favorite store sets up everything they sell.  They'll loan out anything (with a credit card deposit) for a home demo, and will order anything they don't stock without the hassle of having to commit to buy it.  They'd rather demo it for you to make sure it's what you really want.  Can't say enough good things about those guys, so I'll give them a plug...

If you're in the Westchester County, NY area, check out Accent on Music in Mount Kisco.  Great people who know how to earn your business and friendship.  No BS, just the love of music. 

[turkey]

But I've found 2 dealers who do things the way they should be done.   My favorite store sets up everything they sell.  They'll loan out anything (with a credit card deposit) for a home demo, and will order anything they don't stock without the hassle of having to commit to buy it.  They'd rather demo it for you to make sure it's what you really want.  Can't say enough good things about those guys, so I'll give them a plug...

If you're in the Westchester County, NY area, check out Accent on Music in Mount Kisco.  Great people who know how to earn your business and friendship.  No BS, just the love of music.

I wish more dealers were like this. Hell, I wish more businesses in general were like this.

[jimdgoulding]

Nice post above, Stu.  Wish your dealer good fortune.

[mfsoa]

Wow, I wonder what other items you guys refuse to buy because of capitalism's dirty little secret (that people sell things for more than they paid for them).
Ever buy a greeting card? Cup of coffee? Meal at a restaurant? Perfume? Go to a movie? Medicine? Beer? etc. 
I couldn't imagine going through life denying myself basically everything because someone makes a little money off of their efforts.
-Mike

[jimdgoulding]

Mikey, have I missed the point or have you ?

[mfsoa]

Sorry, Jim. Painting with that broad brush again, I guess  .

Maybe I was tired of seeing audio retailers (I guess because my brother is one) singled out as being useless dinosaurs for trying to earn an honest yet barely decent living. I certainly do agree that if a shop has provided you nothing of value, then you owe them nothing.

When I bought your Diffbegons I honestly didn't think of what a square foot of felt and a pr of scissors would cost me, but I did think that here was an innovative idea from a guy who truly seems like one of the good guys who I don't mind supporting. But that's me.

I am well aware that it's a tough climate out there for the B+M guys - They are expected to stock millions in inventory yet only make a pittance for their efforts. (12% interest on $1,000,000 is $120,000, or $10,000 per month. Since some here demand no more than a 10 point profit for the dealer, he'd have to sell $100,000 in gear per month simply to service the debt. And that doesn't put any new gear on the shelves, pay staff, etc. Sorry, I'm no business major that was an off-the-cuff analysis)

I heard a union leader say years ago that all he knew was that what was good for his members (higher pay and better benefits with less work output) was good for the country. But maybe we've seen this swing too far lately?

Analogously, what may be good for the audiophile (no dealers and no dealer mark-up) in the short-term might not be good for the future of the hobby as a whole.

OK back to work...
Everyone have a great weekend and best wishes for Earl...

-Mike

[turkey]

Maybe I was tired of seeing audio retailers (I guess because my brother is one) singled out as being useless dinosaurs for trying to earn an honest yet barely decent living. I certainly do agree that if a shop has provided you nothing of value, then you owe them nothing.

I'm sorry if you were offended. I simply said that, to me, audio dealers are dinosaurs. Later in the thread I elaborated on this and told a bit about my experiences with dealers.

I generally buy direct from the manufacturer. I've found that I get better service this way, and also better products.

[jimdgoulding]

Sorry, Jim. Painting with that broad brush again, I guess  .

Maybe I was tired of seeing audio retailers (I guess because my brother is one) singled out as being useless dinosaurs for trying to earn an honest yet barely decent living. I certainly do agree that if a shop has provided you nothing of value, then you owe them nothing.

When I bought your Diffbegons I honestly didn't think of what a square foot of felt and a pr of scissors would cost me, but I did think that here was an innovative idea from a guy who truly seems like one of the good guys who I don't mind supporting. But that's me.

I am well aware that it's a tough climate out there for the B+M guys - They are expected to stock millions in inventory yet only make a pittance for their efforts. (12% interest on $1,000,000 is $120,000, or $10,000 per month. Since some here demand no more than a 10 point profit for the dealer, he'd have to sell $100,000 in gear per month simply to service the debt. And that doesn't put any new gear on the shelves, pay staff, etc. Sorry, I'm no business major that was an off-the-cuff analysis)

I heard a union leader say years ago that all he knew was that what was good for his members (higher pay and better benefits with less work output) was good for the country. But maybe we've seen this swing too far lately?

Analogously, what may be good for the audiophile (no dealers and no dealer mark-up) in the short-term might not be good for the future of the hobby as a whole.

OK back to work...
Everyone have a great weekend and best wishes for Earl...

-Mike

No need to explain on my account, Michael, but thanks.  I've was just funnin wit ya.  You da man!