[rcag_ils]

I can hear the difference, and I believe others can too, but that's all there is, difference, not better or worse.

[Brett Buck]

I wasn't referring to Frank in my comment about shipping with lousy tubes.

If you don't hear a difference from one tube to another then you have saved yourself a lot of money.  But, to say that no one else can hear a difference is self-serving.

   Who was saying they couldn't tell the difference?  Tubes sound differently since they have particular electrical and mechanical characteristics that are different from brand to brand and unit to unit. It's actually quite easy to hear the differences.
 
    I merely state that there's no reason to think that 60-year-old tubes are necessarily better than those made yesterday.  Particularly when a piece of equipment happens to have been designed and adjusted to use the current versions. Maybe the old tubes are better or maybe they aren't but I am pretty sure that randomly plugging them in and listening is certainly not going to prove it.

   And from a practical standpoint, what are manufacturers supposed to do - design products that are optimized for parts that haven't been made for 40-50-60 years?  Why don't we stamp "Use only Genuine Mullard tubes!" on the back?  Maybe that would serve the "well, generic crap is OK for you guys but I actually care about music so only RCA Black-plates are good enough for me" crowd but that's not exactly a big market. And providing genuinely superior products for that crowd is pointless, since they are dilettantes, who will be off the next week asking about good-sounding Shakti stones. Just have to make the faceplate out of platinum or add some neon-illuminated crystal tube towers for them to feel good about themselves.


     Brett

[trebejo]

I suppose that given this old vs. new conundrum, manufacturers would be best advised to... switch to solid state. 

The manufacturing techniques might have changed. Why do the new violins not sound "as good" as the ones made by Stradivarius?

Oh and why the blazes can't we produce a composer that can measure up to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, or Mahler?

The arc of culture in time does not necessarily point upwards, etc.

So modernity may not be better, but it's what we got. Love the one you're with.

If you can get a good NOS tube and it makes the AVA dac/preamp/amp sound great, good for you. If you can't be bothered, don't worry, the new tubes will also sound great. Some tubes should make more of a difference than others and if you're not pushing the tube much at all then maybe they shouldn't make much of a difference at all. If you have nothing better to do than the swap tubes in and out then that's your current lot in life; if you do have something better to do then I hope that's a good thing, for some sadly it isn't.

Psychoacoustic effects are inevitable, a/b testing is ridiculous (you have to wait at least half an hour between testing sessions, realistically only Frank can be expected to do it since he can have several "identical" devices to try simultaneously), etc.

If you are consistent about demanding objective a/b testing then you might as well jump off a bridge because your parents sure did not follow that rule when your conception took place. If you are consistent with insisting that NOS tubes sound better then you might as well jump off a bridge because tomorrow will be worse than today.

Throughly enjoying Blondie's "Die Young Stay Pretty" at the moment and if we all agree that it was just a bloody coincidence that it came on as I started this then I'll be on my way.

[festuss]

 :duh:Why would a mfg of an $8,500 pre amp ship it with inferior tubes?  Sounds like he is a not so good mfg.  If as you claim, there are better tubes to be had AFTER you buy this guys ill fitted $8500 product.  Why would any legit mfg supply an inferior component in a pricey device?   Maybe what is in there is just fine, and you have decided it's inferior, to whatever one you decided is superior.  you of course did a blind test and found this certain tube was better, which means what?   Imaginations run wild in audio land.  a BETTER tube.....define that!  What is is? I got a new Porsche, they only put some crappy Continentals on em, which should I replace them with, that are "better".  Every mfg doesn't know their own products,always putting in the wrong stuff?
Why is it called tube ROLLING, when you are actually pulling and plugging in!   

[I.Greyhound Fan]

First of all we are talking about 6CG7 tubes and there is only one brand that makes them new and that is Electro-Harmonix.  All the rest are NOS or used and are of limited supply, so that is the end of the discussion about why Frank or a manufacturer would use an inferior tube for this model tube.  I can honestly say that the EH tube sounds great with AVA gear and the Salk Veracity HTR-3's in Franks studio.  I have different gear, mainly Magnepan 1.6's and a Parasound A21 amp with hardwood floors and lots of big windows in my listening area.  The EH 6CG7's are too bright for me.  The original 6N1P's in my gear were less bright but less musical.  Tube rolling has given me the ability to tailor the sound to my liking, not better, not worse-This is what tube rolling is about, period!  I can tell you that I brought my gear to Franks to be modded and we compared some of my tubes to the EH's and they did not sound as good when placed in his system because of the different speakers, amp and environment.

Also, manufacturers pick tubes for the type of sound and price point they are looking for.

[dminches]

:duh:Why would a mfg of an $8,500 pre amp ship it with inferior tubes?  Sounds like he is a not so good mfg.  If as you claim, there are better tubes to be had AFTER you buy this guys ill fitted $8500 product.  Why would any legit mfg supply an inferior component in a pricey device?   Maybe what is in there is just fine, and you have decided it's inferior, to whatever one you decided is superior.  you of course did a blind test and found this certain tube was better, which means what?   Imaginations run wild in audio land.  a BETTER tube.....define that!  What is is? I got a new Porsche, they only put some crappy Continentals on em, which should I replace them with, that are "better".  Every mfg doesn't know their own products,always putting in the wrong stuff?
Why is it called tube ROLLING, when you are actually pulling and plugging in!

What exactly is your point?

[MarkM]

It took a couple of days, but the usual naysayer that trolls the Van Alstine circle has chimed in with nothing to offer, other than sarcasm. 

Stock EH 6CG7 is fine for most....that is the beauty of tubes, you can slightly tailor the sound!

[rcag_ils]

Stock EH 6CG7 is fine for most....that is the beauty of tubes, you can slightly tailor the sound

If I wanted to tailor the sound, I would have bought something with a tone control, I would not use different tubes as a tone control. Tube rolling, or tube plugging or whatever you call it is hogwash.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I don't see any difference in changing tubes to change the characteristics of the sound vs buying new speakers.  All the different 6CG7 tubes that I own sound different and the difference is not subtle.  I started trying different tubes out of curiosity.  Changing tubes in my system affects the sound in ways that tone controls cant.  Some present wider sound stage, greater transparency, depth, some move the midrange forward or backward.  Others have deeper, punchier bass or more detailed treble or less treble. 

And I guess, all the mods the Frank has offered over the years have not made a difference.  Like the 0627 op amp mods  for the Ultra DAC or the change from the 6N1P tubes in the Ultra Preamp and DAC to the 6CG7's.  I guess the Mosfet upgrades are rubbish too and the dramatic improvement in bass and depth of the music is placebo.  Every one of these factory mods improved the sound along the way. 

[festuss]

  Frank's changes where changes in the circuitry!  changed the components for higher  speed,more current ability, etc.  To a DIFFERENT component, that also had changes in operation, and electrical adj.  If you change a tube BRAND with the similar  tube, how does that compare with Frank redesigning the circuits!?  You are not making a good debate.

[JerryM]

 
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73173.msg688810#msg688810

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Frank's changes where changes in the circuitry!  changed the components for higher  speed,more current ability, etc.  To a DIFFERENT component, that also had changes in operation, and electrical adj.  If you change a tube BRAND with the similar  tube, how does that compare with Frank redesigning the circuits!?  You are not making a good debate.

The change from a 6N1P tube did not require a change in circuits. The 2 tubes use the same circuits.  The 6CG7's just happen to sound a lot better, thus the change from the factory! By the way, a change in an opamp is like a  change in a tube.  And the change in opamps did not require any circuit changes.  Tubes have different designs and characteristics even among the same model's but I guess you don't understand that.  Just look at the different 6CG7's and you can see the physical differences. The designers of the tubes designed them with a certain sound or characteristic in mind, thats why there are different brands and models.  It's you who don't get it!   

Your not worth my time any more.

[rcag_ils]

The change from a 6N1P tube did not require a change in circuits. The 2 tubes use the same circuits.  The 6CG7's just happen to sound a lot better, thus the change from the factory!

They are two different tubes with similar electrical characteristcs that just happen to be not requiring any circuit change from the designer. And the designer feels that one works better than the other.

By the way, a change in an opamp is like a  change in a tube.  And the change in opamps did not require any circuit changes.

Wrong, a change in opamp itself is a circuit change. Differnt opamps have different circuits fabricated inside. They have different spec sheets. Why don't you buy a hundred 0627 opamps and start plugging away and see which one sound better.

I doubt that the designer makes better sound unit by just plugging in same parts but made by different manufacturers in different years. What's next? The opamps that were made in 1995 has a more open soundstage than the ones made in 2008?

[martyo]

Larry, thanks for all the time and thought and effort you put into describing what you hear. Many of us really appreciate it. We had some fun and learned a few things back when the 6CG7's started.   

[dminches]

If I wanted to tailor the sound, I would have bought something with a tone control, I would not use different tubes as a tone control. Tube rolling, or tube plugging or whatever you call it is hogwash.

Why do you find it necessary to rain on others' parade?  If people like to roll tubes and talk about it why do you find the need to invalidate their experiences?  This is a thread about tube rolling.  If you think it is "hogwash" why are even commenting?

[avahifi]

festuss, we most certainly can indeed hear differences between different tube brands used in our equipment.

We went through plenty of brands of 12AT7 tubes for the amplifiers, and dual triodes for the preamps and DACs.

A tube is an electro-mechanical device and the way the plates are arranged and supported internally will make differences in their transfer characteristics, as will other changes appear as they age.  They do have a short break in period from new out of the box to the time they provide consistent performance over their service life.

There are even more obvious differences between different tube types, even beyond the obvious differences in specified gain.

For example the 6N1P and 6CG7 are the same gain, but there is a significant difference musically between them in our circuits.  There is no difference we can measure on the test bench.

Tube rolling is popular because we cannot supply old, likely used, very expensive, and likely very limited availability tubes in new production designs.  There is no real point in testing these as we can't supply them.  However end users who wish to pay for so called premium tubes are welcome to try them with their own dollars.  Inasmuch as we design tube circuits in which the tubes are not stressed and asked to do what they do not do well, and because our multiple power supplies keep the tubes working at their optimum, we don't expect one would hear major differences from brand to brand.

However differences still will exist and the end user of our equipment is certainly welcome to play the tube rolling game if they can afford it and they feel it is worthwhile to them.

Its bad karma to poo-poo these clients of ours.  It gains nothing and makes you look pretty radical.  We very much appreciate your long time support, but you need to understand that people hear what they hear, and browbeating them will not change things.

I too am really annoyed with those wasting money for good sounding fuses, crazy ding-dong room treatments, cable elevators, and other obvious snake oil.  There is a huge grey area out there and where someone falls therein from totally fixated with faith based magic system cures to being more attuned to various tubes than others is there own decision.

We can hear differences in tubes that we cannot measure.  Hell, we can hear differences in different circuits designed to do exactly the same thing that we cannot measure.  Are we crazy too?  We are probably all better off trying to come up with objective means to actually define the differences than just deciding that they don't exist because we can't measure them.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[modular747]

Maybe at some point those undefined characteristics that make tubes sound different but measure the same will be understood and a circuit can be designed to optimize a particular tube, making any substitution undesirable.  However, that's a long ways off - and way outside the Mayan calendar....

Frank, it turns out that the right $1000/ml snake oil itself can make things sound better, but only if you drink it by the liter!

[rcag_ils]

I am sure there are ways to measure those undefined characteristics that make tubes sound different , maybe it would take a $250,000 spectrum analyzer to look at the levels of every harmonic freq that amplified by every different tube.

If it sounds different, then the signal is different, then it's measureable.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Why is it so hard to believe that there are very audible differences among tubes when they have different sized, shaped plates, shields, getters, tubes, wires and pins.  Tubes are electric circuits and affect sound and they were designed to have certain properties by their makers such as harmonics among other properties. Manufacturers of the same tube type will produce tubes with different electrical parameters and therefore will sound uniquely different.

For your reading-

http://www.herronaudio.com/tastubes.html

http://www.kjlamps.com/techArticles/Harmonics1.pdf

http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm

http://reviews.ebay.com/The-Tubeking-apos-s-Guide-to-NOS-and-Vintage-Audio-Tubes?ugid=10000000017053944

http://www.legendarytones.com/vacuumtubes.html

http://www.vacuumtube.com/faq1.htm

[modular747]

Spectrum analyzers are not that useful on real music signals and don't tell you anything about dynamic phase shifts and microphonics.