[neyloj2]

Hi, I have a room 10x18x9 wood floor. Jolida 801A reference mods, Scoutmaster with Van den Hul mc10 arrives Friday and I currently have Quad IIL's.  I'm going to install some GKI panels and bass traps. My question is this: can I use Von Schweikert vr-4 jr mK2's in this size room. Thanks

[lonewolfny42]

Welcome....

The Von Schweikert VR-4 jr mK2's should not be a problem since you are installing acoustic panels and bass traps.The VR-4jr's do output strong bass...I'd also add a rug to your floor.

Enjoy....

[neyloj2]

Thank you, I'm getting a large rug tomorrow.

[mca]

Might also want to look at the new Von Schweikert VR-33 

[JLM]

With transmission line bass and specified cut off around 25 Hz you should be OK in that room (with the prescribed treatments). 

But I'd be concerned with standing waves as the room dimensions will promote reinforcement.  If possible I'd think about lowering the ceiling (the ideal height would be around 6.5 ft  ).

[neyloj2]

Wow JLM, can you come lower my ceiling.

[silver_strings]

Another thing you can do improve the sound in your room slightly is put cork sheets under all the furniture especially wooden or hard furniture.

[ctviggen]

With transmission line bass and specified cut off around 25 Hz you should be OK in that room (with the prescribed treatments). 

But I'd be concerned with standing waves as the room dimensions will promote reinforcement.  If possible I'd think about lowering the ceiling (the ideal height would be around 6.5 ft  ).

Don't all room dimensions promote reinforcement?  For instance, I have an approximately 22/18/7'8" room and have tons of peaks and valleys in my room frequency spectrum. 

[JLM]

The "golden ratio" of room/cabinet dimensions is 1.618 of height to width (or width to length).  The square of that number is 2.618 would then be the ideal ratio of height to length.  The ancient Greeks had discovered this 2500 years ago (they used an 8:5 ratio).  This makes for a visually pleasing appearance for interior spaces and, for those stone temples, helped reduce echo.

The secret of the "golden ratio" is the that whole number multiples of these dimensions come out to odd numbers, so echo cannot occur.  In other words if room height equals width any vertical echo would be doubled, or if say room length is twice the width sideways echo would double.  Check out:  http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=41&pagestring=Listening+Room+Dimensions

Cardas goes on to further recommend tapering opposing walls, but that is normally not practical, although an old audio shop I frequented did skew the wall between two listening rooms and it seemed to help.  Tapering/skewing walls would only help higher frequencies that "beam" rather than "wrap around" the room.

Try it: 2 x 1.618 is odd (3.636); 3 x 1.618 is 4.854; 4 x 1.618 is 6.472; 5 x 1.618 is 8.09 (close); etc.  And 2.618 works too: 2 x 2.618 = 5.236; 3 x 2.618 = 7.854; 4 x 2.618 = 10.472; 5 x 2.618 = 13.09 (again close); etc.

Does it work?  My mancave is a dedicated listening room that is 8 ft tall, 13 feet wide, and 21 feet long.  Following the Cardas speaker/listening positioning formulas (nearfield setup) I find six GIK 244 panels provide negligible advantage even though the system is flat in room to 25 Hz.  (My speakers use large single drivers, so provide a built in wave guide for controlled dispersion of higher frequencies ala Geddes.)

Notice I stated "room/cabinet dimensions".  Conventional sealed/ported speakers should follow that advice so half the sound created goes into the cabinet.  Certainly some of the smearing of mid/high frequencies heard in our systems can be attributed to standing waves being multipled and coming back out through the thin acoustically transparent driver cone material (or the port if applicable).

An alternative to 6.5 foot high ceilings is the use of highly absorptive materials on the floor or ceiling to make the distance seem greater.  Ideally these materials work absorb across a wide frequency range.  This works to make any room sound bigger (which within the limits most of us can afford is always, within reason, desirable).  But all that absorption material can overdampen the room and of course make it even smaller visually.  Thus the curse of small rooms.

[mfsoa]

Welcome neyloj2!

I have VR4JR MK1s in a well-treated 13 x 18 x 8' room, set up on the long wall, and I don't think they are too big at all.

One thing that was critical to obtaining the sound I have now was bracing the suspended wood floor from underneath. I recently also added 3/4" plywood to the floor (using Green Glue purchased from bpape) and this resulted in a massive improvement to the sound quality!  So if your floor is suspended, I would suggest you explore the possibility of bracing it. Well worth the $$ IMO.

Best of luck

-Mike

[Big Red Machine]

Here are a bunch of room mode calculators you can use to see what frequencies would be excited based on your room dimensions.

http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/room-eigenmodes.html

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

http://www.realtraps.com/modecalc.htm

http://www.mcsquared.com/metricmodes.htm

[neyloj2]

Hi Mike, among other things are you suggesting my speakers would fair better on the long wall. My room is 10x18x9. I don't have a suspended floor as I'm in SoCal, no cellars. How far would you suggest the speakers be from the wall?

[ctviggen]

The "golden ratio" of room/cabinet dimensions is 1.618 of height to width (or width to length).  The square of that number is 2.618 would then be the ideal ratio of height to length.  The ancient Greeks had discovered this 2500 years ago (they used an 8:5 ratio).  This makes for a visually pleasing appearance for interior spaces and, for those stone temples, helped reduce echo.

These formulas are great, if your room is a perfect rectangle with no openings.  Add a sliding glass door, two windows (one with an AC unit in it, leaving a gaping hole), two doors, a fireplace, one wall that has a jog out into the room, a beam that enter the room 12 inches, and two walls that are built on the foundation (that is, they aren't flat from the bottom of the wall to the top of the wall), and you might as well toss these formulas into the trash. 

[bpape]

Well, you wouldn't completely trash them but you're correct that there will be variations.

The best you can do is avoid particularly bad overlaps and multiples, coupled with careful placement of seating and speakers to minimize how many of the room nasties are where you're sitting.

Bryan

[mfsoa]

In my room I had little choice but to go long-wall due to room openings and symmetry concerns.

I think with only 10' you'd be hard-pressed to make a long-wall setup work.

These are deep speakers so you'd have to keep them really close to the back wall, which is usually not best.

The VR-33s might be better for your room as they are reported to be fine close to back wall and are only like a foot deep.

But if placed on the short wall you will have to pay attention to the side wall reflections.

[neyloj2]

That sounds good. I'm going to go short wall for speakers and surround side and back wall with GIK. My room is perfecy rectangle, one door to living room that close, and back side wall has door to patio. One window on back wall.

[JLM]

Think of them as rules of thumb, just guidelines.   

I recall one audio shop had an 11 foot cube for a listening room.  Two adjoining walls were glass.  Nothing sounded good in there.   

Audio is a hobby, not a military exercise or surgical procedure.  Close enough is close enough.  Relax and enjoy. 

[Stu Pitt]

Was that room Cosmophonic sound in Manhattan?  By far the worst demo room I've ever heard, and possibly the worst room I've ever heard overall.

If it wasn't Cosmophonic, I guess there's someone else in the world who thinks a room like that helps sell gear.   A shame really, as they demo some very good gear. 

[JLM]

No Stu, the room I heard was in Ann Arbor.

Getting back to the OPer's ?...

Your room does seem a bit overmatched for the VR4Jr Mk II's, unless you're getting them for a great deal.  Most audiophiles have way more equipment (especially speakers) than is warranted by the room they use.  By that I consider room size/shape, speaker/listening locations in the room, room surfaces/treatment, and how much of the time you want to listen that you can without limitations of family/neighbors.

That's why I used headphones in college when I got serious about audio.  Most room strapped audiophiles should really use something like an iDecco with standmounts for casual listening and headphones for serious/loud sound.  A sub can be added and dialed in as appropriate.

[neyloj2]

Great advice, thank you all. Without this site newbies like myself would be lost. I took delivery on my Scoutmaster with the Van den Hul mc10 and all of a sudden I'm really enjoying these little Quad IIL's. The vocals are pure honey. I can't stop spinning records. Miles was in my room when I turned the lights out. I also received a couple of my acoustic panels and placed them at first reflection points. This is going to be a life long addiction.  I want to sell my dirtbikes for mono blocks. Thanks again.