[mathgeek97]

Jim,

I'd say picking up the OPPO BDP-83 would be a great idea.  It'll handle a large variety of formats and can do DVD-Audio through the digital outputs at up to 24/192, which will work nicely with Frank's Vision DAC.  I'd think going anymore upscale would be a waste for your target audience (normal audio enthusiasts who forgot to win the lottery).  I'd also stick with the cheaper BDP-83 over the BDP-83SE since you're showing off Frank's very, very nice DAC.
Over in the HiRez circle, they've been playing with the Atlona HDMI De-Embedder http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-HDMI-1.3-Audio-De-Embedder-with-3D-Support.html which can pull an uncompressed digital stream from BluRay and send it to the Vision DAC.  It's only $219, but maybe they'd like to send a demo unit.
The "audiophiles" still won't like an unmodified OPPO, but I doubt that's your audience anyhow.

[cacophony777]

Do you want me to ask Jim to allow me to bring in some "really good" B&W Diamond  speakers or similar to display against the Salks?

I realize this isn't a serious question, but to my ears the Songtower sounds much better than the $8,000 B&W 804 Diamond. I've also heard the 805 Diamond quite extensively, and while I prefer it to the 804 Diamond, it's also not in the same league as the Songtower, IMO.

So you're not missing out by demoing your gear exclusively with Salk stuff, Frank 

[Brian Kingsbury]

First of all, we pay half the cost of the show displays we share with Jim Salk and neither of us are paying to display other brands of equipment. Do you want me to ask Jim to allow me to bring in some "really good" B&W Diamond  speakers or similar to display against the Salks? My clients are not whining that we are not using good enough speakers at our show displays.

I've heard the B&W Diamond speakers.  You guys have nothing to worry about.  If you don't make a CD transport, digital source or turntable since then there's really no other choice than to use equipment from another manufacturer.  It might as well be something that doesn't handicap your system and gets people to sit down and have a listen instead.

Neither Jim or I are into audiosnob marketing.  The Soundscapes were designed using AVA electronics, there is no good reason to expect them to perform better on grossly overpriced audio salon brands of electronics.

I had no complaints about the sound quality of the AVA electronics used at the show.  I knew nothing about AVA (or any other electronics manufacturer really) but I built my own amps/preamps.  There really is no reason for a component to cost more than a couple grand because it's almost impossible to spend more than a few hundred in parts.  I'd be willing to guess that most $20k amplifiers cost no more than $1000-$1500 to build, most of which is spent on the case.

Regarding using a "hi end" CD transport (audiophlake nonsense of course), a multi purpose transport would not hurt anything, but it would be slower to load than a purpose designed CD player only, kind of a pain for demo purposes.

The Songtowers and AVA Ultravalve got about as good a review from TAS as any products ever has, both designed without magic capacitors, wonder wires, mung shu dots, welding cable wires, or any other overpriced voodoo that suckers keep throwing their money away on.

The point is we are both trying to demonstrate to show buyers is that it is not necessary to blow a fortune to have the very best audio there is.  It appears that it is very difficult to get that message out to as many as we would like to.

The fact is your target audience is NOT the budget crowd, it's people who want the best without getting ripped off.  Being part of that crowd myself, I can tell you that when I'm spending a huge chunk of my hard earned money on audio products I want to see that you take your reputation seriously.  You don't need to pull stunts like using a Denon since it just gives the impression that you think that source electronics doesn't make a difference while you're selling electronics.  Instead of emphasizing the value of your products, using the Denon emphasized that making a statement against the industry was more important to you than showcasing your own components for perspective buyers.   While its true that there's gross overpricing in high end audio (and that's not ever going to change) it detracted from the system potential and took the emphasis away from the quality of your products.  I dont think anyone here is suggesting a $10,000 CD transport but something a step-up from the mid-fi Denon would add more credibility to your room and get people who might be skeptical to sit down and listen.  Once people have a chance to listen, the superb sound quality of your products vs your prices will send the message that you don't need to blow a fortune. 

Like Teddy Roosevelt famously said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick"

[fsimms]

I listened to an Audio Research tube CD player at AliG's a  couple of years ago.  The sound, in that system, was amazing.   It was magical when played with his Archo's.   I am still today haunted by the sound of the piano on one of Dave Brubeck's songs.  I didn't hear it much, but AliG says that it is a key element to the sound he was getting.  The difference was not subtle at all.   AliG was looking away from the speakers.  When AliG heard the first cord of the piano, his head spun around so fast, I thought he might start spitting pea soup!

Bob

[strat95]

I had never heard any of Jim and Dennis's speakers before the show but I've been secretely reading this forum for some time.  I absolutely loved the SoundScapes fed through the AVA gear and Jim was a pleasure to meet.   If I were in the market to buy a speaker, regardless of cost, I wouldn't think twice about choosing them.

The sound was among the top 3 of the show - easily beating out speakers costing FAR more - and the finish quality was easily the finest I've ever seen on a loudspeaker.  I went into the Salk room over and over for the two days of the show because it was one of my favorite systems.  As a general rule, I never look or ask about prices on any systems I listen to until I have had a chance to soak the sound in for a while.  It's hard to remain objective when you start looking at prices.   Sometimes when you hear prices after hearing a system you just have to laugh to yourself and know that price doesn't guarantee performance. With the SoundScapes, I was definitely laughing alot more when I went and heard speakers that cost 10x as much but didn't impress me.

I wish the same could be said about the Denon CD player.  Jim played a CD for me that I'm pretty familiar with and it sounded just plain bad.  Going back to the squeezebox, the terrific sound returned.  I'm definitely not into source gear - anything costing over $2,000-$3,000 is a ripoff as far as I'm concerned - but there was a noticable decrease in sound quality when switching to the Denon.  I know people will assume I'm basing my judgement on the fact I expected it to sound bad but I literally never even looked at the source equipment being used while listening to the speakers.  I only looked at the player after the CD started and there was a signifcant amount of grunge to the sound.  I didnt even know he was using a Squeezebox until I asked about 10 minutes into the demo. Anyway, count this as a vote for getting an upgraded transport for the next show.  There were a LOT of people carrying vinyl around as well and having a turntable will certainly attract more people to the room.

Other than that minor quibble, I was thoroughly impressed with the Salk room.  I've already raved about it to anyone that would listen to me at the show and to my friends.

Hi Brian,

Can you please disclose what the test CD was?  I ask because often I take a test CD that I am familiar with and hear it sounding bad, thinking the equipment is at fault.  Yet other CDs sound amazing.  I eventually realize that my test CD is the problem.

Regards,

Ted

[Nuance]

Well, on thing to keep in mind is that, at RMAF, we will be in a small room and a slightly larger toom.  The larger room will bet the soundscapes.  Perhaps the smaller room will too.

In the past, we have tended to take quite a few pairs of speakers.  And the room quickly fills up.  It is difficult to stage more than one pair, much less three or four.  So I am thinking of the SongTowers and perhaps the HT2-TL's.  And that is probably more than we probably should take.

I need some advice.  As far as a higher rez player, do you think the Oppo BD83 would be OK?

- Jim

While the Oppo is a great transport IMO, I don't think it will be approved by the "hi-fi" crowd.  I was honestly thinking of something more along the lines of this:

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/M6-Series/M6CD/m6cd.asp

[Nuance]

I listened to an Audio Research tube CD player at AliG's a  couple of years ago.  The sound, in that system, was amazing.   It was magical when played with his Archo's.   I am still today haunted by the sound of the piano on one of Dave Brubeck's songs.  I didn't hear it much, but AliG says that it is a key element to the sound he was getting.  The difference was not subtle at all.   AliG was looking away from the speakers.  When AliG heard the first cord of the piano, his head spun around so fast, I thought he might start spitting pea soup!

Bob

Which model was it?  The Audio Research CD7 I heard was the best transport I've ever heard.  Period!  I think it's been replaced by the CD8 now, but I'd imagine it's as good or better than the 7.  If I had the budget and wasn't streaming my tunes, the CD8 would be my ultimate transport (regardless of the ridiculous price tag).

[strat95]

Well, on thing to keep in mind is that, at RMAF, we will be in a small room and a slightly larger toom.  The larger room will bet the soundscapes.  Perhaps the smaller room will too.

In the past, we have tended to take quite a few pairs of speakers.  And the room quickly fills up.  It is difficult to stage more than one pair, much less three or four.  So I am thinking of the SongTowers and perhaps the HT2-TL's.  And that is probably more than we probably should take.

I need some advice.  As far as a higher rez player, do you think the Oppo BD83 would be OK?

- Jim

Hi Jim,

The OPPO is at least a newer player that has received some good reviews.  It should still be connected to the AVA DAC of course.  I think the OPPO can passthrough high rez via coax based on this thread (read post #3)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82794.0

As mathgeek97 pointed out, the Atlona box could allow for passthrough of high rez Blu-Ray audio to the DAC of you choice such as the AVA Vision DAC.  Look at the model AT-HD577.

http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-HDMI-1.3-Audio-De-Embedder-with-3D-Support-and-2-x-1HDMI-switching.html

Here is the Audio Circle thread in the High Rez circle about the Atlona:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82217.0

The Atlona AT-HD577 provides 2 HDMI ins that are switchable and also had optical and coaxial outs.  It may also be capable of de-embedding high rez audio without having to be connected to an HDMI viewing device.  But that needs to be confirmed.

You could also consider the newer Logitech Squeezebox Touch.  It is capable of playing 24/96 files that can be fed to the AVA Vision DAC via coax.  In addition, you could plug in a USB device directly to the Touch and access files without the use of computer running a server.  This could allow people to bring high rez material to shows for playback via USB sticks.

You could also consider a dedicated transport as it may appear more "high end".

It's too bad that Stereophile is writing such words about the experience in your room at the California show when in many cases like this not enough time is spent with the equipment and definitely not under ideal circumstances.  I know these shows are hectic and there is much to hear, but he should have at least returned the next day for a second listen considering the buzz about the SoundScapes AND AVA gear pushing them!  Besides, all development and demos of the SoundScapes to this day have been done with AVA gear and that is how the buzz got started.

It is one aspect of what has to be dealt with in the audio business... perception of product.  Seems like a Catch 22 situation.  But it is great to hear Frank chime in with his no nonsense approach to audio and supporting his stance.

I wish you great success with the SoundScapes and hope to demo them someday soon.

Regards,

Ted

[jsalk]

Ted, Nuance, et. al. ...

Thanks for the input.

I already ordered a Touch and will be streaming 24/96 at RMAF.  No problem there (I'll probably keep the Touch out of site). 

As for a transport, I would like something that can handle Bluray, SACD DVD-A and DVD as well.  That is what attracted me to the Oppo.  I have a lot of SACD's already and it would be nice to use those.  I bought a Philips transport a couple of years ago for SACD playback.  But it can't handle Bluray or DVD-A.  Since we will be using higher rez music, it would be nice to be able to play back all of them...thus the Oppo.  In all cases, we could feed to the Vision DAC that uses the latest Wolfson chips.  It should work quite well.

- Jim

[some young guy]

But that DAC won't do high rez. Is it only for the Touch?

[highfilter]

But that DAC won't do high rez. Is it only for the Touch?

The Vision DAC indeed does support high rez. From the AVA site...

"Versatile - - - the AVA Vision DAC directly accepts 44K, 48K, and 96K bit rates. It can be user adjusted to accept up to 192K 24bit ultra fast input digital data streams too. Simply move one internal jumper."

[fsimms]

Which model was it?  The Audio Research CD7 I heard was the best transport I've ever heard.  Period!

It was the CD7.  The song was "Strange Meadow Lark" on the "Time Out" CD.  I certainly agree with your "Period!". 

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Out-Dave-Brubeck/dp/B000002AGN/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281324443&sr=1-1

Bob

[Brian Kingsbury]

Can you please disclose what the test CD was?  I ask because often I take a test CD that I am familiar with and hear it sounding bad, thinking the equipment is at fault.  Yet other CDs sound amazing.  I eventually realize that my test CD is the problem.

It was Track 1 from a recording of Yo-Yo Ma playing Bach's "6 Unaccompained Cello Suites".  It's nothing too complex being a solo cello recording but it does have a nice dynamic range and sounds very good on my reference system.

[bigjppop]

It was Track 1 from a recording of Yo-Yo Ma playing Bach's "6 Unaccompained Cello Suites".  It's nothing too complex being a solo cello recording but it does have a nice dynamic range and sounds very good on my reference system.

This is one of my favorite pieces of music and I believe it is an excellent demo track.  Solo cello is something that can really give you goosebumps when played well.

[strat95]

It was Track 1 from a recording of Yo-Yo Ma playing Bach's "6 Unaccompained Cello Suites".  It's nothing too complex being a solo cello recording but it does have a nice dynamic range and sounds very good on my reference system.

Thanks Brian.  Amazon lists 3 versions.  Which one were you using in the demo?

From 2010
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Unaccompanied-Suites-Yo-Yo-Ma/dp/samples/B003PTP5BW/ref=dp_tracks_all_2#disc_2

From 2006
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-6-Unaccompanied-Cello-Suites/dp/B000F6YW3K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281383725&sr=1-2

From 1990
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Six-Unaccompanied-Cello-Suites/dp/B0000025QM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281383725&sr=1-1

Thanks,

Ted

[Brian Kingsbury]

The 2006 version.

[Sparks]

I need some advice.  As far as a higher rez player, do you think the Oppo BD83 would be OK?

- Jim

Far be it from me to give advice but since you asked....
The Oppo is first player that came to my mind.
IMO, unless you go to something expensive, like the Ayre universal player, the chances of impressing an audiosnob are slim and even if you do go big there's still the tube-mod crowd and this devotee and that devotee and on and on and on.
I would say get the Oppo 83 plain Jane or even the Oppo 80.
If I'm understanding the configuration correctly, you're using the AVA DAC so the player is simply a transport and the internal DAC or analog section of the player is doing nothing.
Oppo is well respected and rightly so, plus it fills the all disc duties.
Just my 2 centavos.

[jsalk]

sparks -

Thanks.  That is what I was asking.  My thoughts were that since the Oppo could handle cd, dvd-a, dvd, sacd, etc., it would handle just about anything someone wanted to listen to.  And since we would be using an outboard DAC, we wouldn't really need anything more.

- Jim

[Vulcan00]

I own both the Oppo bd83 and SE. I also have the Yo-Yo MA Bach "Cut". IMHO  the universal  use of the Oppo is outstanding.

If using the Vison DAC I can't think of a reason for the SE model. However Kal Rubinson does prefer the new Sony Player over the oppo. But again since the vision dac would be used I cant think of a reason not to use the BD83 as a transport.

[avahifi]

I would have no problem at all using an OPPO 83 at trade show displays.  I have one of these in my own HT setup.

Of course the SE addition would be redundant as it will be used with an AVA Vision EC DAC which is capable of up to 192K 24bit performance.

I mentioned before that in the design process we evaluated both the Wolfson 8742 and the ESS Sabre chip set and found that when used with our identical power supplies and analog filter/output circuits, the Wolfson was preferred by all working in the evaluation process here.  The ESS seemed just a tiny touch bright and grainy although there was nothing significant we could measure between them.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine