[K Shep]

Interesting...and different approaches on how to reproduce music.

I have spent a decent amount of time with both the V2's and the big brother to the MMMiniTwo's - the MM3's.  The V2's are a very pleasurable speaker to listen to, but are severely overpriced for what they are capable of delivering.

How was the bass on the MMMini Two's?  Was it capable of true full range?  Any challenges or issues with driver integration?

George

Yes.  Two very different speakers.  IMO the Two's did play low end well, in fact I sat down in the room first thing Suday morning, first to visit.  And when Johnathan pressed play the integrated sub wasn't turned on, so the first minute of my demo CD played with out the sub unit playing.  Johnathan jumped and said would you like the sub turned on, of course.  I heard the speaker with and with out the sub playing. 

Driver integration sounded great to my ear. 

[charmerci]

Reading this thread is rather confusing. I'm rather amazed that several audiophiles can listen to the same thing and not hear the same thing! 

[zybar]

Reading this thread is rather confusing. I'm rather amazed that several audiophiles can listen to the same thing and not hear the same thing! 

Really?

Very rarely do I see situations where everybody agrees on something.

We all hear differently and we all have different aspects of the music experience that impact us.

This is just par for the course.

George

[fsimms]

Reading this thread is rather confusing. I'm rather amazed that several audiophiles can listen to the same thing and not hear the same thing!

Different people listen to different things.  One person may listen for clarity and another person might listen for bass response.   One person might listen for dynamic range and another person might listen for image.   My father went to clubs when he was young, so a speaker that had the ambiance of a night club really floated his boat.   The people are not wrong.  The speakers that they like aren’t bad.   They just have different tastes.

Bob

[DMurphy]

Different people listen to different things.  One person may listen for clarity and another person might listen for bass response.   One person might listen for dynamic range and another person might listen for image.   My father went to clubs when he was young, so a speaker that had the ambiance of a night club really floated his boat.   The people are not wrong.  The speakers that they like aren’t bad.   They just have different tastes.

Bob

Certainly true.  But I would still like to get a better description from the attendee's of the SoundScape in the CA room.   A PM would be fine. 

[arthurs]

Great posts George and Bob.  We could all embrace these concepts a little more...

[Hugh]

Words of an 'old' wise man.

Great posts George and Bob.  We could all embrace these concepts a little more...

[jsalk]

Just a few quick comments on the California Audio Show...

First of all, thanks to everyone who visited our room.  It was great to finally meet some of our West Coast owners in person.  That is always the fun part of a show.  We also had an opportunity to meet a whole lot of people who returned time and time again for another listen.  Many reported that we had one of the very best sounding rooms at the show.

As for the room itself, it was the smallest room we had ever had at any show.  And since I flew to this show, we didn't have the benefits of room treatments.  This was a concern since I was afraid the bass from the SoundScape 10's would overwhelm the room.  Fortunately, that was not the case.  The dual opposed passives seemed to load the room very evenly.  Many people commented that other rooms were extremely "boomy" even though many of them were playing small monitor speakers.  So I felt we were extremely fortunate in this regard.

Would room treatments have improved the sound?  I'm sure bass traps and acoustic panels on first reflection points would have helped quite a bit.  But for a small, untreated room, I think we fared quite well.

I did notice that when the room was empty, it sounded a little on the bright side and I had to keep the volume under control.  But when the room was full (which was the case most of the week-end), it was a little on the dull side.  Bodies seemed to soak up the top end.  But when the volume was increased, the top end returned.  (This is probably what Jason from Stereophile experienced listening to his Mahler CD as he seemed much happier when the volume was increased).

I think, in the end, the SoundScapes would definitely fare better in a larger room (which we will have at RAMF).  The SongTowers, on the other hand, seemed to do quite well in that room, although their placement was far from optimum (the SoundScapes were where the SongTowers should have been, but it was too hard to move the SoundScapes every time we switched speakers).

There seemed to be quite a bit more emphasis on higher-end audio at this show.  People always asked what source gear we were running and seemed quite surprised that it was Redbook (standard CD) audio.  They would say, "wow, if you are getting this kind of sound with this equipment, imagine how these speakers would sound with some good source gear!"

We have always demo'd our speakers with an inexpensive CD player and/or an unmodified Squeezebox (both running through AVA's latest Wofson-based DAC's) so that people would know the sound quality was related to the speakers and not mega-buck source gear.  With no room treatments and gear like they were likely to have in their home, what they heard would be the minimum they could expect out of those same speakers in their home.  But now we have to re-think that approach.

Quite a few people took one look at the Denon CD player and Squeezebox and decided the room was not worth spending any time in.  Perceptions, it appears, are extremely important in the higher-end market.  So we'll have to re-examine our approach to the gear we use at shows and at least have 24/96 gear (and perhaps a high-end turntable as well).

Even with the limitations we dealt with, the reactions we got were quite positive.  The Bay Area Audio Society was impressed enough to ask me to leave the SoundScapes behind for their next meeting.  Unfortunately, that was not possible.  But we did agree to make a pair available to them sometime after RAMF.  So they will have a chance to play with the SoundScapes under much better room conditions and with the source gear of their choosing.  Stay tuned for that...

All things considered, I thought the show went quite well.  We received very many extremely positive comments and were very often told our room was among the very best sounding at the show.  We had a chance to meet old friends and make quite a few new ones.  Now we'll just have to concentrate on RMAF and up our game a little.

- Jim

[Paul K.]

Jim, you can do exactly what Lexicon did when they repackaged the guts from an Oppo CD player, with virtually no changes and none that could improve the sound, into a fancy box with their name on it and then charge several thousand more than what the same guts in a plainer sheetmetal would cost from Oppo.  I'm sure Frank could create you a very fancy box to house whatever electronics you want, making it look like something quite expensive.
Paul

They would say, "wow, if you are getting this kind of sound with this equipment, imagine how these speakers would sound with some good source gear!"

Quite a few people took one look at the Denon CD player and Squeezebox and decided the room was not worth spending any time in.  Perceptions, it appears, are extremely important in the higher-end market.  So we'll have to re-examine our approach to the gear we use at shows and at least have 24/96 gear (and perhaps a high-end turntable as well).


- Jim

[DMurphy]

Jim, you can do exactly what Lexicon did when they repackaged the guts from an Oppo CD player, with virtually no changes and none that could improve the sound, into a fancy box with their name on it and then charge several thousand more than what the same guts in a plainer sheetmetal would cost from Oppo.  I'm sure Frank could create you a very fancy box to house whatever electronics you want, making it look like something quite expensive.
Paul

The plan is good.   And Jim can even use the MurphyBlasterProductions Moniker if he would like. Dripping with prestige. 

[Nuance]

Jim,

Well said sir.  It's unfortunate that it has to go down like that, but unfortunately the Industry big dogs influence the things consumers expect.  At least we all know where your roots are, and we appreciate your honesty. 

Jim, you can do exactly what Lexicon did when they repackaged the guts from an Oppo CD player, with virtually no changes and none that could improve the sound, into a fancy box with their name on it and then charge several thousand more than what the same guts in a plainer sheetmetal would cost from Oppo.  I'm sure Frank could create you a very fancy box to house whatever electronics you want, making it look like something quite expensive.
Paul

LOL - that's awesome!  Too funny.

[Big Red Machine]

A matching veneered cabinet for the CDP with NO name on it.  Keep them guessing.

[Nuance]

Might I ask if Frank can use his new AvaStar or T8 preamp gear and FetValve amp to run the SoundScapes at RMAF?  I think a little tube action in conjunction with the SS's will blow people's minds.

[HoosierInOhio]

A matching veneered cabinet for the CDP with NO name on it.  Keep them guessing.

+1.  Call it the Crotch CDP

[randybessinger]

Here's what he said about the Acoustic Zen (http://blog.stereophile.com/cas2010/elite_audio_systems_krell_acoustic_zen_and_clearaudio/):

"Things were challenged in the bass department, however. When I revisited the room on the last day of the show ... Robert had changed the jumpers on the speakers. Bass in the extremely challenging room was certainly better, but the tweeter had less sparkle."

Boy that says it all

[OgOgilby]

We have always demo'd our speakers with an inexpensive CD player and/or an unmodified Squeezebox (both running through AVA's latest Wofson-based DAC's) so that people would know the sound quality was related to the speakers and not mega-buck source gear.  With no room treatments and gear like they were likely to have in their home, what they heard would be the minimum they could expect out of those same speakers in their home.  But now we have to re-think that approach.


- Jim

I agree that re-thinking that approach makes sense when showing the SoundScapes Jim. People shopping for $10K plus speakers probably aren't interested in hearing inexpensive or reasonably priced electronics - no matter how the gear actually sounds.

[avahifi]

Well we can always have Jim simply make great looking wood boxes for our electronics for the shows, faceplates and knobs and all, and simply move the decimal point over one place for them for the prices, maybe even furnish genuine walnut power cords too, and more the decimal point over another point.

I simply will not go into business screwing stupid rich people just because they are rich and stupid.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[zybar]

Jim,

Well said sir.  It's unfortunate that it has to go down like that, but unfortunately the Industry big dogs influence the things consumers expect.  At least we all know where your roots are, and we appreciate your honesty. 

LOL - that's awesome!  Too funny.

C'mon guys...the AVA gear is good and an even better value, but let's not pretend there isn't better out there. 

If the better performing gear costs more, that doesn't make it wrong or stupid.

Before I get flamed, I am not saying that cost equals performance, just that there is better equipment out there that could highlight the capabilities of the Salk SoundScapes.

George

[woodsart]

 
"[I simply will not go into business screwing stupid rich people just because they are rich and stupid.]"

Love it, love it.....Frank!!!

[highfilter]

C'mon guys...the AVA gear is good and an even better value, but let's not pretend there isn't better out there. 

If the better performing gear costs more, that doesn't make it wrong or stupid.

Before I get flamed, I am not saying that cost equals performance, just that there is better equipment out there that could highlight the capabilities of the Salk SoundScapes.

George

Agreed. There's lots of good gear out there and if having some more upper-end stuff will get more people into the room and allow them to hear Jim's awesome speakers, then I think it's worth while.

At the end of the day, it's getting more people to actually hear the speakers instead of walking away giving sappy faces because the electronics weren't all bright and shiny, or recognizable. Jim's speakers deserve to be heard, and that's what they are there at the shows for. We all know Frank has quality stuff, but a little change doesn't hurt either.