Bi-Wiring

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brucek

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #20 on: 1 Aug 2010, 05:03 pm »

Let's say you have cable impedances Zc1 and Zc2 (two different cables). And Zt, Zb impedances of tweeter and bass driver circuits.

In single wire, the amp sees Zc1 in series with a group formed by Zt and Zb connected in parallel.

In bi-wire, the amp sees a parallel group of two series subgroups, one is Zc1 + Zt, the other is Zc2 + Zb.

The impedances seen by the amp would be different except some degenerated cases (0 cable impedance, or stuff like that).

Nap.

So, following your logic, if I solve your equation, the difference in bi-wiring is entirely due to the lower impedance realized by using additional cables (example, two 12 gauge cables offer lower impedance than a single 12 gauge cable)?

Why not simply use a single cable of equivalent lower guage (example, one 9 gauge opposed to two 12 gauge)?

brucek

etcarroll

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #21 on: 1 Aug 2010, 05:16 pm »
Thanks Nap.

Brucek - that way lies madness.

I think I'll  get some generic 12ga, run it to 1 speaker as the 16 ga. goes today, and fashion a 12 ga. jumper, see/listen if I get the same results as I heard yesterday.

skunark

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #22 on: 1 Aug 2010, 05:33 pm »
Napalm,

For the amps to see a different impedance, you would have to bi-amp.  Bi-wiring is nothing more than moving the jumper wire from the speaker to the amp.


srb

Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #23 on: 1 Aug 2010, 05:58 pm »
Napalm,

For the amps to see a different impedance, you would have to bi-amp.  Bi-wiring is nothing more than moving the jumper wire from the speaker to the amp.

I think he is saying that all cables have some capacitance and inductance, and if you bi-wire, the impedance value of the cables is increased.  In the majority of cables, that impedance is small and negligible, but there are some cables that have much higher than normal values, and in those cases it could change the load ever so slightly.
 
So, technically he is correct, but the real world affect on the amplifier load is likely miniscule.
 
Steve

skunark

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #24 on: 1 Aug 2010, 06:25 pm »

I think he is saying that all cables have some capacitance and inductance, and if you bi-wire, the impedance value of the cables is increased.  In the majority of cables, that impedance is small and negligible, but there are some cables that have much higher than normal values, and in those cases it could change the load ever so slightly.
 
So, technically he is correct, but the real world affect on the amplifier load is likely miniscule.
 
Steve

Which would be nothing more than switching from bare wire to a banana-plug, or coiling a few extra feet of the speaker cable to change it by milli-ohms.   Yes technically he is correct, but in "basic electrical circuits" where everything is dealt as ideal, there's practically no difference assuming the two wires equal the same gauge as the single wire.

If we ignore the ideal theories, then I would be more concerned two different wires causing incoherency between the low and high frequencies, which a few speaker manufactures worry about.

Robert D

Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #25 on: 1 Aug 2010, 06:26 pm »
This Should help

Robert


Bi-wiring can improve clarity and openness, with less grain and more solidity
to the bass. Two cables are required for each speaker that you bi-wire.
Bi-amp
Passive bi-amping offers a dramatic improvement in clarity, openness and
detail, with much better bass solidity and definition. The presentation of music
and movie soundtracks is simply more intelligible and transparent.
With passive bi-amping, the speaker’s internal passive crossovers remain
connected. An external electronic crossover is not required and cannot be
used (there is no direct electrical access to individual drive units). This saves
expense and setup difficulties. Passive bi-amping optimizes your speaker to
achieve the best possible high-end performance. To bi-amplify, two power
amplifiers are required. Connection can be either vertical or horizontal.
IMPORTANT! When bi-amping, always use amplifiers with identical gain.
If uniform amplifier gain is not maintained the speaker-to-speaker balance
will be incorrect when vertically bi-amped, or the speaker system’s frequency
balance will be incorrect when horizontally bi-amped. To prevent problems
use identical amplifiers (Brand and Model) and in identical operating modes
(single channel or bridged).
Vertical Bi-amplification dedicates one amplifier to each speaker. This
configuration provides complete channel separation, which optimizes your
system’s imaging ability. Connect your speakers to one amplifier at a time.
Horizontal Bi-amplification dedicates one amplifier to your speakers’ mid/
low-frequency inputs and another to their high-frequency inputs. This configuration
can maintain better clarity when listening at loud levels—if lowfrequency
demands cause amplifier clipping, distortion will still be kept away
from high-frequency drivers.

Elizabeth

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #26 on: 1 Aug 2010, 06:34 pm »
I used to know what biwiring did. but after all this gobbledygook I realize i did know.. but now I am totally confused. Thank you all for making a mess out of an easy topic.
Thanks again... thank you..   :o
And PS to srb: biwiring lowers the impedance, not raises it.

etcarroll

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #27 on: 1 Aug 2010, 06:35 pm »
RobertD - thanks for that.

srb

Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #28 on: 1 Aug 2010, 06:45 pm »
And PS to srb: biwiring lowers the impedance, not raises it.

And PS to Elizabeth:  biwiring (cables in parallel) lowers the overall resistance (if the two wires have a net gauge larger than the single wire) and inductance, but capacitance in parallel is additive, and in most cables the capacitance is the higher value component of reactance, and therefore normally has the most effect.
 
Steve

brucek

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #29 on: 1 Aug 2010, 07:46 pm »
Quote from: srb
biwiring (cables in parallel) lowers the overall resistance (if the wires are the same gauge as the single wire) and inductance, but capacitance in parallel is additive, and in most cables the capacitance is the higher value component of reactance, and therefore normally has the most effect.

Actually, the loss from parallel capacitive reactance in a low impedance interface isn't even worth deriving because it's so insignificant.

The output impedance of a typical amplifier is around .02 ohms connecting usually to a load of about 8 ohms. This is a very low impedance circuit where the amplifier acts as a voltage source. Unlike inductance, capacitance provides us with a 'parallel' reactance. This frequency dependant resistance is across or in parallel with the 8 ohm load. A typical parallel load that the capacitance in a speaker cable provides is many, many orders higher than 8 ohms. It's in the thousands of ohms. It's not significant enough to consider. If we were discussing interconnects, of course the opposite is true because it's a high impedance connection.
 
Inductance though, is quite significant in a speaker circuit since it provides a series reactance that can be an appreciable portion of the 8 ohms that the speaker offers. This acts as a low pass filter and will indeed roll off high frequencies.

With respect to bi-wiring, one of the often mentioned explanations that it theoretically doesn't work, is that if you move one pair of speaker wires to the same terminals where the other pair is connected, absolutely nothing changes electrically. The law of physics that says so is called the superposition principle. In terms of electronics, the superposition theorem states that any number of voltages applied simultaneously to a linear network will result in a current which is the exact sum of the currents that would result if the voltages were applied individually.

I would contend that this is only partially true, since it assumes that the bi-wire speaker cables present a zero impedance, and that distortion from one driver will not affect the performance of the other driver. Superposition only holds true for a linear system.

Bi-wiring will only theoretically be a benefit when drivers distort and linearity is no longer maintained (non-linear).

With sufficient voltage a driver can deviate from ideal linearity so the current in that connection between the low output impedance of the amplifier and the woofer (in this case), will carry harmonic distortion components which can create intermodulation products. In a simple non-bi-wire situation, the tweeter driver terminals will see these distortion components through the speakers (low to zero) impedance straps (when a single non bi-wire set of cables is used).

The theoretical advantage is now valid if you assume a set of bi-wire speaker cables has some finite impedance (obviously, the longer the cables, the more pronounced the effects will be). When bi-wire cables are used rather than single wires with straps, the distortion components (caused by the woofer driver) will have a lower impedance path to the amplifiers low output impedance sink, rather than travel back and down the tweeters speaker cable.

Yes, it's a small advantage and you could argue that the tweeters crossover would help to reduce the problem, but I suppose you could argue that the harmonic and intermodulation products will be at a higher frequency and may pass through to the tweeter driver.

The entire advantage is gained by asking this question. From the perspective of the woofer driver terminals, which is the lower impedance path to the tweeters driver terminals? Is it a set of straps in a non bi-wire situation, or is it the route of a set of bi-wire cables that has a theoretical ideal voltage source (amplifiers low output impedance) in the path?.......... The answer is the bi-wire configuration.

Unfortunately, the benefit would be about the same result as attempting to slow your car down by putting your  hand out the window? I doubt anyone could hear the benefits of bi-wiring, but the theory is there to prove it works.

brucek

srb

Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #30 on: 1 Aug 2010, 07:55 pm »
Unfortunately, the benefit would be about the same result as attempting to slow your car down by putting your  hand out the window? I doubt anyone could hear the benefits of bi-wiring, but the theory is there to prove it works.

I know B&W is a proponent of bi-wiring, and they do publish a small explanation in their product manuals.  They don't sell speaker wire, but perhaps recommending it is a small value-added perk for their dealers, who do sell speaker wire.
 
With the few speakers and amplifiers I have tried it with, I have not been able to discern a difference.
 
Steve

vegasdave

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #31 on: 1 Aug 2010, 07:57 pm »
I've never tried bi-wiring. Is it worth it?

etcarroll

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #32 on: 1 Aug 2010, 08:36 pm »
I've never tried bi-wiring. Is it worth it?

I think you have to try it and make your own determination. I thought, from reading, it was so much hooey, then tried it yesterday. Not so sure now. Just came in from hardware with 20' of black & 20' of red 12 ga. wire and spade lugs to continue the experiment.

skunark

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #33 on: 1 Aug 2010, 10:27 pm »
Sadly, this experiment will always sound slightly different as it's hard to match a single run and bi-wire speaker cables to do a proper comparison.   Almost always you are changing the gauge, resistance, capacitance, inductance, etc, and can probably explain why you are seeing a difference as it's hardly an apples-to-apples comparison.   ...some possible reasons: jumper wire is of insufficient quality/gauge, change in overall gauge between the pairs, difference in length, difference in spade/banana plugs quality.  Essentially just short list of Napalm's tone-controls here :)

I've jumped from single run to bi-wire back to single run and concluded I would rather put my dollar on a better gauged cable, what i've noticed on bi-wiring is easily recovered with a better gauge.  Also I'm interesting in upgrading my speakers and a few candidates don't allow for bi-amp/wiring.

Robert D

Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #34 on: 1 Aug 2010, 10:52 pm »
Try the Bi-Wire .....
Room size will help, larger is better

Your Speaker Placement & Positioning will change due to the bass.

This always depends on your Speakers, My Speakers need lots of breathing room.

Robert



Napalm

Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #35 on: 1 Aug 2010, 11:46 pm »
Napalm,

For the amps to see a different impedance, you would have to bi-amp.  Bi-wiring is nothing more than moving the jumper wire from the speaker to the amp.

I wouldn't recommend that you connect a jumper wire at the amps terminals  :wink:


Napalm

Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #36 on: 1 Aug 2010, 11:48 pm »
So, following your logic, if I solve your equation, the difference in bi-wiring is entirely due to the lower impedance realized by using additional cables (example, two 12 gauge cables offer lower impedance than a single 12 gauge cable)?

Why not simply use a single cable of equivalent lower guage (example, one 9 gauge opposed to two 12 gauge)?

brucek

It's not an equivalent circuit. Ok, I promise I'll do some drawing later tonight.

Nap.

Napalm

Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #37 on: 1 Aug 2010, 11:49 pm »
I've never tried bi-wiring. Is it worth it?

I did. In my case the answer was "no".

Nap.

Elizabeth

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #38 on: 1 Aug 2010, 11:56 pm »
Thanks brucek!
I read your post twice, and I think I understand it. Whoo Hoo!!
I have biwired. I cannot say, (as another pointed out, using different wire negates any chance to say if the improvement was the biwire or no)
Anyway. thanks brucek for the explaination.

etcarroll

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #39 on: 2 Aug 2010, 12:23 am »
brucek -

I had to read your post a few times myself, but if I got it, to paraphrase - the improvement in bass I heard in the biwired speaker may be more the result of the removal of the strap and replacing 16ga. wire with 12 ga. vs. the 'theoretical' chance of improved sound that biwiring might provide.

PS -

What do you do for work?

PPs -

I have really big hands!  :P