Braced the cabinets

John Casler · « **Reply #40 on:** 24 Feb 2004, 04:03 am »

For anyone interested here is a picture from that infamous meeting (and Mark still has his hand on top of the speaker)

I think Brian is either explaining the size of something or reaching for Mark's wallet

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #41 on:** 24 Feb 2004, 04:04 am »

You should be able to retrofit the window braces by cutting them in half, then installing them through the woofer cutouts and gluing them back together and to the cabinet walls.

As soon as Dorne returns from his by-monthly trip to China I'll ask him about making additional retro-type braces available.

zybar · « **Reply #42 on:** 24 Feb 2004, 04:21 am »

Thanks Brian.

I look forward to getting the braces.

GW

Enrico · « **Reply #43 on:** 24 Feb 2004, 04:38 am »

Quote from: John Casler

Hi Enrico,

The point I was making, is that while bracing is cheap, you can always add another one, and then another one, and then another one, until the cabinet is full of them.
...

But John,

That's not much of a relevant point here. Was I suggesting that VMPS should try for 'the ultimate cabinet' with 'hundreds of braces'?? No, I was not. To imply that I was is a 'straw man' tactic. You are setting up a 'straw man' so that you can knock it down--but it's NOT what I said, let that be clear.

The original poster made a couple of factual observations: adding a brace resulted in improved sound quality, and adding a brace is easy for a skilled person to do. My question was: Since this is the case, why would not these extremely simple and cheap improvements be added at manufacture?

Your response did not address this issue at all. Hey, you don't have to address it. You can just ignore me. But please don't make me look like I'm asking for 'a super cabinet' and then dismiss it as absurd/impossible.

BrunoB's post was a lot closer to the mark, by suggesting that soundcoat does a better job anyway.

John Casler · « **Reply #44 on:** 24 Feb 2004, 05:55 am »

Quote

That's not much of a relevant point here. Was I suggesting that VMPS should try for 'the ultimate cabinet' with 'hundreds of braces'?? No, I was not. To imply that I was is a 'straw man' tactic. You are setting up a 'straw man' so that you can knock it down--but it's NOT what I said, let that be clear.

The original poster made a couple of factual observations: adding a brace resulted in improved sound quality, and adding a brace is easy for a skilled person to do. My question was: Since this is the case, why would not these extremely simple and cheap improvements be added at manufacture?

Your response did not address this issue at all. Hey, you don't have to address it. You can just ignore me. But please don't make me look like I'm asking for 'a super cabinet' and then dismiss it as absurd/impossible.

Hi Enrico,

Sorry you didn't think I answered your question but I was attempting to.

Your question (as I understood it) was "Why wasn't this new bracing done before. (under the assumption that it is easy, cheap and effective)

I simply meant to state that:

1) the design met a current price/performance point
2) there will always be that question to any small improvements.

There will always be a "top" as well as a "bottom" line.

As Brian said:

Quote

So to answer your question, you have to stop somewhere. The RM/X is as far as I go, with the RM 40 close behind.

I think Brian has explained that the design "as it stands" is a good one.

Brian also said:

Quote

Sal Salgado built all the RM 40 cabinets to date and could not find room for window braces, the only kind I like, using his manual cutting equipment (pin routers, table saws).

I said:

Quote

Brian, just like all other designers has to look at the overall design and "balance" all the components and the costs to deliver them within his pricing window with the minimum/maximum performance goal.

Brian said:

Quote

I do not care for dowels, which make the front baffle drive the back baffle.
Window bracing is the best but only Dorne Dibble had the equipment to cut them so they would be effective. Plus he mounts them solidly in grooves, their shape is trapezoidal, and they cradle the subenclosure rather than running a brace under or through it. In the latter case it would cause reflections and disturb the panel mounting.

So I hope those "snippets" offer a step toward the answer to your question.

Enrico · « **Reply #45 on:** 25 Feb 2004, 03:54 am »

John, thanks--actually I still find it hard to accept the price/performance argument per se. Brian's quotations are useful in understanding his position on why no additional bracing is used. As I said, I'm no DIY so I can't assess whether a cheap non-window brace would improve the sound--others say it does, but perhaps there is a sonic penalty as well which would be obvious with longer listening.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #46 on:** 25 Feb 2004, 04:47 am »

I shouldn't have listened to Sal in the first place about the bracing. On the other hand, I had no alternative. We'll make some sophisticated bracing available to the DIY set.

lifewithmusic · « **Reply #47 on:** 28 Feb 2004, 06:56 am »

All this talk of bracing misses the point, which for me is that the original RM-40 when first introduced, in CES show conditions, sounded better, in every way, to my ears than many speakers at four and five times the price. For example, better than Wilson Watt Puppy 6s in a custom computer designed nonparallel walled Corning treated driven by $60K of electronics.

While I am certain that there can always be some improvements made in any speaker, there is a deminishing return. And let's not forget that VMPS speakers don't need to be "tweaked" or "further perfected" in some way to make them sound "better than the competition." They always have, and for a fraction of the price.

And that is just my 2 cents. Let's keep all this in perspective, and be grateful, as I am, that Brain has a passion for this hobby, and maintains the best value pricing in this industry of hype, glitz, and carbolic smoke tweaks.

zybar · « **Reply #48 on:** 28 Feb 2004, 01:17 pm »

That's one way to look at it, but I disagree.

The fact that Brian makes a product with excellent performance for the money doesn't mean I shouldn't try to make it better. Also, I don't think it is necessarily about diminishing returns. I spent an hour or two replacing the insulation with lamb's wool behind the midrange panels and it was a noticeable improvement. Others have found improvements by bracing or other tweaks.

You also say:

Quote

And let's not forget that VMPS speakers don't need to be "tweaked" or "further perfected" in some way to make them sound "better than the competition."

This couldn't be farther from the truth!

I was not happy with the sound when I bought the speakers. A lot of that disappointment turned out to be me taking too much putty out. If you don't spend hours upon hours playing with not only the standard location (which you need to do with every speaker) but with putty and pots you can get really bad sound. If you make changes in your system, you have to go back and make changes again. I also pose this question? Outside of Brian who knows how his speaker is supposed to sound, how do we know when it is really right and can't get any better?

Before anybody kills me, yes I know that many view this as a positive. I am not so sure. I know it is next to impossible to get the putty and pots exactly equal on both speakers. If they aren't equal, is that having more of a negative than the positive impact?

The RM 40's are still the best speaker I have owned and the sound I am getting right now is the fantastic. I am just of the opinion that it can be even better and less error prone if certain things changed.

BTW, "grateful" for the RM 40's? I don't think so...

I am grateful I met a great woman and she married me. I am grateful that my son is healthy and a good kid. Well, you get the point.

GW

James Romeyn · « **Reply #49 on:** 26 Mar 2004, 04:46 am »

The circa mid-late '90s FF3 SRE Active Ferites had an MSRP of about $7900. TAS said that spkr was possibly unbeatable at its price. My $5800 RM40 TRTs killed them in the Neo's five octave range (almost 1/2 the musical spectrum). The FF3 treble was slightly better, its bass improved by a thicker cabinet & active LP XO (woofers are identical). The RM40 is among the best values just as shipped. At least we all seem to agree on that!

zybar · « **Reply #50 on:** 26 Mar 2004, 04:48 am »

Brian,

Any update on the braces?

George

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #51 on:** 26 Mar 2004, 04:32 pm »

Dorne has built an entire run (30 pcs) of piano black, heavily braced RM 40's. I'll ask him if he has some spares, or is willing to set up the CNC to run some.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #52 on:** 26 Mar 2004, 06:03 pm »

Quote from: zybar

Outside of Brian who knows how his speaker is supposed to sound, how do we know when it is really right and can't get any better? ...

This is bad news or good depending on perspective. B has good days & bad just like anyone, meaning B will not always get the exact same results. Also, the quality of the sound will be determined by the length of time he spends tuning it. B makes mistakes just like anyone. He has gladly admitted to playing a system (I think for a reviewer) that later turned out to have a frozen woofer. I remember being at his place decades ago, a guy listens to MiniTower IIa's (before some of you were born), guy likes the sound, B & I heard no problems. Later a grill is removed to display a gaping empty midrange hole with 2 wires poking through on one channel (sum total of one mid per channel). Go figure.

rblnr · « **Reply #53 on:** 9 Apr 2004, 08:07 pm »

Am interested in the braces as well, so let us know. Thanks.

rlcordeiro · « **Reply #54 on:** 10 Apr 2004, 02:57 pm »

I have had a pair of RM-40's for six months now. I am not a DIYer. Should I really mess with these speakers? Would a set of window braces cut by Dorn make a such a significant improvement that I should risk it?

audiochef · « **Reply #55 on:** 10 Apr 2004, 07:22 pm »

rlcordeiro,

yes, it's a no brainer , absolutely no drawbacks especially cranking it up.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #56 on:** 11 Apr 2004, 03:40 pm »

Early '02, shortly after the RM40 won the CES award, I met one of Bs customers who was getting a quote from Brian to build RM40 cabinets to FF3 SRE specs: thicker walls all around, don't know about bracing; I owned FF3 SRE for a year. Just what B wants to do: stock a "signature version" deluxe cabinet. It could be a special order item, with an advertised 6-8 week delay, if only the cabinets could be delivered in that time frame.

The FF3 SRE Active's bass certainly beat RM40s, the differences being the cabinet, active 4th order LP XO, & mandatory biamping with it's concomittant clutter. The woofers are identical.

The FF3's triple spirals also edged out the RM40s duals, but a single HET would beat 3 spirals anyday. The RM40 midrange & overall performance was better.

Marbles · « **Reply #57 on:** 22 May 2004, 06:48 pm »

Brian,

I have read about the braces made from dowel rod cut to the correct length, but I have no idea where the window braces would go.

Would these fit just above the woofer and just below the midwoofer?

Would we need to do anything besides shove them through the driver holes and glue them in place? In an earlier post you mentioned haveing to cut them in half, then glue them back together in the cabinet. Is that still the case?

What time frame do you have on these?

What do you estimate the cost to be?

Do you think the window braces are better than the dowel rod tweak?

Thanks for any info.

Rory B. · « **Reply #58 on:** 23 May 2004, 04:37 am »

I think one of the coolest things about VMPS speakers is that they are THE "tweaker's speakers". If you want your bass a different way, just tune the passive radiator. If you want to adjust the balance between mids and highs and the low frequency section, just set the L-pads. Want to try biamping? Flip the toggle switch. These speakers are reflective of Mr. Cheney's years of experience and dedication to providing the very best value, while still remaining so technologically-advanced (WCF woofer cones, ribbon mids with extended midbass performance, special spiral ribbon tweeters, those crazy slot-loaded adjustable PRs that I still can't seem to figure out how they work) that you still have bragging rights over most speakers out there. Certainly over any speaker in the same price range. Perhaps one day I'll own a pair of RM2s with megawoofers. Even if I don't have the amplification I can still drive them with my HT reciever until I have the money to buy the right amps.

Marbles · « **Reply #59 on:** 26 Feb 2005, 08:52 pm »

Before I cut some dowels up and glue them in, are there any updates to the window bracing for the DIY crowd?

I was thinking of putting a dowel from the back of the midrange box to the back panel of the cabinet at both the top and bottom of the mid-range box.

I was also thinking of putting in side to side dowels at just below the top woofer and just above the bottom one.

Thanks for any comments.