[jsaliga]

I have a Technhics SL1200 MKII brand new in the box that I bought as a backup turntable.  I was thinking of sending it off to KAB Electro Acoustics to have the 78RPM mod done to it so I can play 78s.

The Technics is box stock and for now my only interest in modding it is to give it 78 capability.  For all I know this could be a flash in the pan for me and I don't want to go bananas on this deck by adding an expensive tonearm.  I'll consider doing something like that if it looks like I am buying a lot of 78s.

I was wondering if there were any ACers out there who buy and play 78s that might have a few pearls of wisdom they would care to share.  Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated.

--Jerome

Note: I have renamed the topic since the new name better reflects the gist of the thread.

[woodsyi]

It's a PITA and sound quality is not very good on most disks but then you can only get some first hand recordings through 78s.  If you are willing and are into vintage and historic recordings (for the music you like) then go for it.  You need to get a new 78 phono pre with variable eq as well as new cartridge(s).  You have to research what eq was used.  You may also have to devise a separate cleaning regimen as shellac can't handle any alcohol. 

I have no affiliation with this outfit but it gives an idea of what you need.

P.S.  A DC motor run through a variable output DC power supply will also give you a way to tweak the speed as 78s are not all at 78 RPM. 

[jsaliga]

I would mainly want it for some 1930s and 40s jazz recordings.  Duke Ellington, Billie Holiday, Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw...stuff like that.

I knew that there were several EQ curves in use for 78s.  For now I am planning to do it on the cheap so I will get a "generic" 78 phono pre from phonopreamps.com for $70.  I am just looking to get my feet wet to see if it is something I will enjoy enough to make an investment in.

--Jerome

[Ericus Rex]

I think I've read somewhere that 78s will eat up modern styli.  If that's the case, be sure to get a true 78 cartridge.  I would guess the noise floor would lower with a 78 cartridge too.

[TONEPUB]

That's probably the best way to go as Woodsyl said, they almost all sound awful.  You might even want to grab yourself a cheap Dual for 75 bucks to play them.  Won't make much diff.  Keith Monks and a few others make cleaning fluids specifically for the shellac records and that will go a long way at making these records more enjoyable.

My suggestion, spend as little as possible!

[jsaliga]

My suggestion, spend as little as possible!

That's the plan.  It won't cost much to have my Technics SL1200 modded to support 78RPM.  A good phono pre with variable EQ is expensive (I haven't seen one for less than $1,000), so that is out of the question to start with.

I have heard a few good 78s (good meaning not abused or beat to death) and they are quite listenable, relative to the state of recording and transcription of the time.  However, I have no delusions that 78s are going sound like a true hi fi record made in the 1950s or later, but I don't expect them to either.

--Jerome

[TONEPUB]

If you want to go the Shure M97 route, I've got one with a damaged (stereo) stylus that I'll sell you for $25.

Just buy one of these:

http://www.needledoctor.com/Shure-N78S-Stylus?sc=2&category=72

Plug it in and you're set for 78's!  PM me if interested...

[Scott F.]

Like Jeff mentioned, you are best off with an old Shure cartridge. Then you'll need to buy a 78 needle for it. Shure offers one, the N78. It can be found at LP Gear;
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=LG&Category_Code=78STYL

I have a dedicated 78 system that consists of a Dual 1229, Shure V15 III with the N78 driving a Stromberg Carlson mono amp (I forget the model) with variable EQing which drives an Altec 824 Iconic. Here is a really old pic of the mono system.




I've also used my main system to play 78's. I have the Graham Slee Jazz Club phono pre which allows EQing across the ages. I have to say 78's on a system with good resolution isn't near as enjoyable to listen to as the old StrombergAltec combination. Maybe its because the Stromberg has tone controls but it just sounds better even though the resolution isn't there.

I have to say on the Stromberg/Altec combination, 78's sound surprisingly good. Most of the grunge is gone and the music just pours out. Most of my listening is early jazz and blues. Some of the local guys have heard the system and were really surprised just how good 78's sound.

Go for it 

[Minn Mark]

Last year I purchased a lot ( I mean a lot) of 78s--over 750, for $50.00   Its a fun hobby to get into if you heed the previous advice. This isnt CD quality sound by a long stretch.  I opted to go for a dedicated TT and stylus so I wouldnt have to tweak my SOTA TT back and forth.  I got a Pro-ject Debiut III 'table with the optional 78 drive pulley, and the 78 stylus for the included Ortofon cart. I got an Esoteric Sounds Rec-O-Cut 78/33 phon pre-amp equalizer  (less than 100 bucks from The Needle Doctor)    which works just great. I experimented with EQ via a SAE parametric that I have.   Using MONO output to the speakers makes a high difference. I'm not so picky about the EQ that I mess much with it anymore.  A clean disc makes a lot of difference. I use products from The Record Doctor (solution and cleaning pads) that work well.

I say, go for it.  But remember, its aerobic activity 'cuz your'e up outta yer chair changing discs/sides every three minutes !!

Cheers,

Mark

[jsaliga]

I appreciate the replies and have decided to go forward.  But I haven't made up my mind about the turntable.  There seems to be an abundance of decent vintage decks around for not a lot of money.  For less than I would spend on modding the technics I could snag a decent Dual or Lenco deck.  So I am kicking that idea around a bit.

In the meantime I have already started buying some 78s. 

--Jerome

[jsaliga]

I did some checking with Sound Hi Fi to get pricing for modding my Technics or possibly buying another deck from them already modded.  I was interested in the Jelco SA-750 9" tonearm, the 78RPM mod, and the external power supply.  I also asked them to price two cartridges already mounted in headshells: an AT MLa440 and a Stanton 500.  The price, including the deck was almost $3,000 given the exchange rate.  I'm sure that would be a fine combination.  But for that kind of money I could buy a Garrard 301 or Thorens TD-124 and own a piece of history that will retain or even increase in value over time.

But for now I think it makes the most sense to buy a 1970s vintage Lenco, ELAC Miracord, or Dual deck.  There are a ton of them available and even a mint example of the best of them doesn't sell for much more than $300.  Then I can add the Rek-o-kut phono preamp and a Stanton cartridge and start spinning 78s.

--Jerome

[jsaliga]

The first batch of 78s I bought arrived today.  I snagged 20 Tommy Dorsey records for $12.  They were very carefully packed but one record was broken.  I haven't touched a 78 in many years but I knew how fragile they are going in...so this doesn't surprise me.  Fortunately the damaged record wasn't particularly important to me.



These records have all had their share of play I am sure, but aside from the one broken record all them were scratch free with no chips or other signs of trouble.  They were a little dirty but cleaned up quite nicely using the mild record cleaning solution that is safe for shellac 78s.

Over the weekend I bought about 80 records.  I need to start thinking about storage for them.  I don't want them piling up loosely as they will only get broken that way.  I have plenty of storage space in my basement...any suggestions?

I still don't have a turntable yet...but I have bought a cartridge, stylus, and phono preamp.  There are a few Duals on Ebay I am looking at, among some others.  The question of a turntable should be settled today.

--Jerome

[CELT in AR]

Just wanted to mention one thing. Be sure to never use an alcohol based cleaner on shellac 78's as it will damage them! Don't ask me how I know this. 
RCA made some of their 78's on vinyl for radio station use. The noise floor is quite low and they can really sound good! Remember that pre-1955 78's, like 45's and Lp's don't use RIAA equalization.

[Delta Wave]

I'll be getting into them soon enough, my in-laws have tons of them they're going to entrust to me. I'll have to get a second table. I believe Rek-O-Cut makes a decent EQ to compensate for non-RIAA curves. 

[jsaliga]

I bought this German-made vintage ELAC Miracord 50H II on eBay.



It appears to be a very clean deck that's in great shape.

To go with it I bought a Stanton 500V3 cartridge, 3.0 and 3.5 mil elliptical 78 styli, and the Rek-O-Kut Archival Phono Preamp.  I decided to sell off my open reel deck and tapes.  The tape deck had to go to make room for this second turntable, and I never really had enough tapes to make the investment worthwhile despite how fabulous they sounded.  The AKAI 635D went off to its new owner yesterday.

I'll have more to say when the turntable arrives and I start spinning records.

--Jerome

[CELT in AR]

That Miracord is drop-dead gorgeous! 

[jsaliga]

Indeed it is.  The only drawback to this deck that I can see is that parts are not as plentiful as they are with Dual decks.  But the cost for the Miracord was not terribly high so there isn't a lot of money at risk.  If it turns out that I really like this deck after using it then I will keep my eyes peeled for a parts deck on eBay.

--Jerome

[jsaliga]

Lesson learned today.  Be careful who you buy 78s from on eBay.  I know that sounds like I'm stating the obvious, but let me explain.  You see, I thought I was careful.  I checked the seller's feedback, over 19,000 with a 99.8% positive rating.  I then checked to see how many of their transactions were for records.  Lots of them were.  So I dove in and bought a Pearl Bailey four record set on Capitol.  Unfortunately, all four records were cracked.  Look at the photo below and see if you can figure out why that happened.



It should be obvious from the picture.  The records were improperly packed.  The thickness of the record set and one layer of bubble wrap was greater than that of the box they were packed in.  This almost assuredly meant that any weight put on the box would bear directly on the records themselves.  It doesn't take much to crack a shellac record.  I have asked the seller for a refund.

In contrast, here is a box with two 78 record sets inside.



In this case, each set was sandwiched between two pieces of heavy cardboard and surrounded by two layers of bubble wrap, separated by paper packing filler.  This is the way to ship 78s and the records were in great shape.

The difference was the first seller, while very experienced with vinyl, was relatively inexperienced with shellac records.  The second seller does nothing but 78's and sells several hundred per month.

--Jerome

[SET Man]

.... Unfortunately, all four records were cracked.  ...

--Jerome

Hey!

    Yup, that seller doesn't know how to pack 78s. They need more room and cushion than LP. Even putting two 78s together can break them if they bang against each other.

     Multi 78s set album is a bit tricky and need more room and cushion in the box and to be safe it is a good idea to put thin bubble wrap in between each record page.

   As for cleaning. I'm using Disc Doctor cleaner diluted according to Disc Doctor's recommendation for 78s shellac and wash it with NYC's tab water. Seem to works well.

     BTW.. Scott F... that's one hell of dedicated 78s playback system you've got there.

Take care,
Buddy

[jsaliga]

     BTW.. Scott F... that's one hell of dedicated 78s playback system you've got there.

Absolutely!

--Jerome