Need ideas for WAF / living room friendly - non-imposing room acoustics

saisunil · « **on:** 12 Jul 2010, 06:17 pm »

I had real traps in the living room - they sounded great ... but I had to sell them
I replaced them with GIK acoustics - they sounds just as fine but they are big and they are not neutral color - so they need to find new home ...

What ideas are out there in terms of WAF / living room friendly room acoustics that work and are will not cost a fortune?

I have heard about

Michael Green's wood series
Those tiny or medium sized metal / precious metal bowls
PARC - room acoustics handled electronically

I'd appreciate if people can share their experiences and if possible please refrain from making fun of products that seem to be a bit over the top.

I am trying to keep my marriage and hobby together ...

Thanks for your valuable input ...

Regards
Sunil.

arthurs · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Jul 2010, 06:59 pm »

Look into Whisperwall or an application called acousdepanel by a company called acousdecor...these are total wall type solutions that can have fabric or drywall textured type of finishes....most WAF I know of other than like the GIK panels with pictures screened on them...

bpape · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Jul 2010, 07:00 pm »

I won't comment on the bowls as they're just flying in the face of physics.

Michael Greens - OK if you don't mind addressing only from 1kHz up.

PARC - can be very effective in terms of frequency response though it will do basically zero for decay time issues.

Unfortunately, dealing with broadband problems simply takes size and thickness. Have you considered some of our Art Panels?

Can you potentially build false soffits around the wall/ceiling perimeter of the room?

Bryan

saisunil · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Jul 2010, 07:54 pm »

Hi Bryan,

I am thinking about the art panels ...
Can you please give some examples of soffits

We have to repaint our apartment very soon (august) ... I could potentially do stuff in the living room that she may not even notice

Thanks
Sunil.

Quote from: bpape on 12 Jul 2010, 07:00 pm

Unfortunately, dealing with broadband problems simply takes size and thickness. Have you considered some of our Art Panels?

Can you potentially build false soffits around the wall/ceiling perimeter of the room?

Bryan

bpape · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Jul 2010, 08:08 pm »

Not finding any good pics right now. Basically you just build a small wall, say 8" or so high and hang it on the ceiling of the room maybe 12" out from the wall. Connect to the wall with another 'wall' that has one side screwed into the wall and the other into the one you just hung from the ceiling. Fill with insulation and cover with cloth. Trim to match your room.

Bryan

Nyal Mellor · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Jul 2010, 11:24 pm »

Unfortunately you are in the realm of my acoustic maxim....budget, aesthetics, function: pick two!

It is practical to build room acoustics into the fabric of the room, check out any decent custom build home theater!

Or there is the alternative of finding room treatments that are aesthetically interesting e.g. diffusors or acoustic panels printed with artwork.

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Jul 2010, 04:34 pm »

Conventional panels in corners and on walls can be covered with hanging curtains, Navajo blankets, and other hanging fabrics. Other than that Brian is of course correct - real acoustic improvement requires a reasonable amount of surface coverage.

--Ethan

vinyl_guy · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Jul 2010, 05:06 pm »

When my music room/family room addition was built in 2005, I had Rives Audio design an acoustic treatment package. I worked with Guilford of Maine http://www.truetextiles.com/products_services/acoustic_panel_fabrics/ to pick acoustic panel covers in colors that blended with my wall and ceiling colors. They sent me samples of different colors so I could pick the most appropriate colors. I bought my panels through an RPG dealer and was able to specify the fabric color. Pictures are posted in my gallery at http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1834

It was critical to me that the acoustic panels blend with the room and I have been very happy with the results, both musically and aesthetically.

Laura

ebag4 · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Jul 2010, 05:25 pm »

What a great space VL1.

Many envious audiophools looking at that room, nice job!

Best,
Ed

ctviggen · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Jul 2010, 05:35 pm »

Quote from: Ethan Winer on 13 Jul 2010, 04:34 pm

Conventional panels in corners and on walls can be covered with hanging curtains, Navajo blankets, and other hanging fabrics. Other than that Brian is of course correct - real acoustic improvement requires a reasonable amount of surface coverage.

--Ethan

Ethan: Assume one has 7 real traps in various sizes, what's the best way to cover these? That is, if I get some fabric and wrap them in fabric, how do you tie the ends of the fabric into the real trap's frame?

vinyl_guy · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Jul 2010, 05:52 pm »

Quote from: ebag4 on 13 Jul 2010, 05:25 pm

What a great space VL1. Many envious audiophools looking at that room, nice job!

Best,
Ed

Thanks Ed. The room has brought me many, many hours of enjoyment and lots of compliments from friends who have come over to listen to music. It's a great room for entertaining too.

Regards,

Laura

bpape · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Jul 2010, 05:52 pm »

Nice looking room Laura.

Bryan

arthurs · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 Jul 2010, 06:15 pm »

Quote from: bpape on 13 Jul 2010, 05:52 pm

Nice looking room Laura.

+1

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Jul 2010, 06:00 pm »

Quote from: ctviggen on 13 Jul 2010, 05:35 pm

Assume one has 7 real traps in various sizes, what's the best way to cover these? That is, if I get some fabric and wrap them in fabric, how do you tie the ends of the fabric into the real trap's frame?

The simplest way to cover RealTraps with Guilford or other fabric is to cover the entire panel, frame and all. Then you can secure the fabric on the rear using spray glue and/or push pins etc. The customer photo below is from our site, showing (sort of) how he did this.

--Ethan

Glenn Kuras · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Jul 2010, 01:22 pm »

Quote from: bpape on 12 Jul 2010, 07:00 pm

I won't comment on the bowls as they're just flying in the face of physics.

Michael Greens - OK if you don't mind addressing only from 1kHz up.

PARC - can be very effective in terms of frequency response though it will do basically zero for decay time issues.

Unfortunately, dealing with broadband problems simply takes size and thickness. Have you considered some of our Art Panels?

Can you potentially build false soffits around the wall/ceiling perimeter of the room?

Bryan

I have to find the picture but we had a customer not so long ago use all artpanels with the pillar traps in the corners. You would have never known there was a acoustic product in the room, well until the music started playing of course.

Wrong room but kind of the point.

vinyl_guy · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Jul 2010, 02:33 pm »

Thanks Bryan & Arthurs.

Laura

stew · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Jul 2010, 06:48 pm »

Hi Sunil,

I had some critical sound issues in my listening room. Since my listening room is also our living room, then my options for room treatment are limited (WAF). I persevered, however, and installed 2 GIK bass traps in the front corners, and 2 EchoBusters absorption panels to reduce reflections (I have an echoey room). Both sets of panels resulted in substantial improvements to the room:

1. Bass traps: Subjectively less bass "ringing" or "overhang", with a resulting increase in bass note impact during music listening.

2. Absorption panels: Before the absorption panels were installed, there was a discernible slap echo (easily reproduced with hand clapping). After panels were installed, this echo is effectively gone.

Even so, I still did not feel that the room treatment helped enough mainly due to the fact that the bass was still too "heavy" and some notes still had significant overhang to them, but I could not install more treatments due to the aforementioned WAF.

So, I bought a used TacT RCS 2.0 for a reasonable price (<$1000). This has been a complete, 100% revelation to my system. Note that I have a simple two-channel system with floor-standing speakers and no sub. Yes, TacT requires tweaking of the response curves with careful listening and measurement iterations. Yes, it can drive you mad since the tweaking can go on forever (are we, as audiophiles, ever really satisfied with the sound?

).

The result has been complete taming of *all* bass issues except one: I still have ringing around 40Hz. This is due to a room node that TacT cannot fix (as others have pointed out). The only fix would be more bass traps. However, as a result of the bass taming, the amplifier is devoting less of its power to pumping out bass notes and the soundstage has dramatically opened up and clarified. Overall, the music has more PRAT, the music is more clearly discernable due to lack of room interactions that were muddying the sound, and voices are dramatically more clear.

Based on my personal experience, I would highly recommend some form of PARC. You can couple that with acoustic panels if you also have the ability to do so.

Good luck!

Thanks, Stew

Nyal Mellor · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Jul 2010, 04:16 am »

Time domain ringing: may I please direct readers to the following by Mr. Toole...

“Room resonances at low frequencies behave as “minimum phase” phenomena, and so, if the amplitude vs. frequency characteristic is corrected, so also will the phase vs. frequency characteristic. If both amplitude and phase responses are fixed, then it must be true that the transient response must be fixed – i.e. the ringing, or overhang, must be eliminated” (Toole, The Acoustical Design Of Home Theaters, 1999).

There has been some debate about this fact, but doubters please reference the paper which contains measured evidence of the efficacy of magnitude based equalization in reducing time domain ringing (see Fig 3, Pg 8 in particular, although Toole’s entire discussion of equalization in this paper is worthy of your time and attention).

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Jul 2010, 05:05 pm »

Quote from: Nyal Mellor on 19 Jul 2010, 04:16 am

"If both amplitude and phase responses are fixed, then it must be true that the transient response must be fixed – i.e. the ringing, or overhang, must be eliminated”

That might be true in theory, but I've never seen proof in practice. I've had a few email exchanges with Dr. Toole about this, and once I asked him if the measurements he did improved the ringing a few inches away. He never replied. This to me is the key. Even if you can flatten a null and reduce the ringing for the one cubic centimeter where the measuring microphone is placed, if all the ringing is back three inches away that's not a practical solution. The two times I've done this experiment, EQ was unable to reduce ringing:

Audyssey Report
EQ Versus Bass Traps

I'd love for an EQ proponent to do a proper documented test, as I've done, and show what they measure. I've asked for this more than a few times!

--Ethan

saisunil · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Jul 2010, 05:30 pm »

Thank you all ...

At trhis point - I am considering either ideally trading them for neutral / wheat colored traps or covering them with fabric with or without art ...

Best Regards ...
Sunil.