[coke]

The last component needed to complete my 2 channel system is an external DAC.  I don't have a lot of experience with external DACs though, so i'm not sure what to expect.

There are some very small issues that i have with my current setup, which I think are due to the DACs in my Squeezebox and Oppo bdp-83 (I don't want to state what they are and risk influencing answers to the following question).

Has anyone had experience with the DAC in the squeezebox and an AVA dac?  What differences can I expect to hear?   How would a Vision DAC improve upon the the squeezebox DAC? 

I've read the vision thread, but i'm just looking for more information    Thanks

[avahifi]

Just for your info, Jim Salk always uses an AVA DAC after his Squeezebox at our show demos of Salk Speakers and AVA electronics.  This would not be necessary if the DAC built into the Squeezebox was good enough.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[floresjc]

coke -

I don't have any experience with the Vision DAC, but I do have an Insight DAC that is almost a year old now. I pair it with Salk HT2-TL's and a SB Duet.

The DAC was the last piece to arrive from Frank, and so I had to run the SB DAC for awhile. Certainly, running a SB through Frank's preamps and amps hooked up to an HT2-TL sounds really good. The addition of the DAC was the cherry on top.

On the face of it, the Duet is $300, of which a fair portion of it is probably for the remote. The actual DAC section may cost them a couple bucks, compared to a dedicated DAC, which Frank's engineering team has several hundred dollars invested in to build with expert hands. So you could certainly expect a more faithful reproduction of the analog signal because all it does is reproduce that waveform.

What difference does this make? To my ears the difference was significant. I kind of imagine it this way, a cheap dac is going to give me its best production in the wide center of frequency content, but the extended lows and highs are probably not as represented as they should be. The first thing I noticed with the Insight DAC was the fact that the entire frequency spectrum felt like it was being pulled out to the fullest, giving the amps and speakers the best representation of the source material possible.

So certainly, I felt the bass and the treble were better represented by the time it hit my ears. The second thing is that the sound was smoother. People would describe it as buttery, but in general, I would say that the sound was more natural or liquid. Some people don't like digital because its supposed to be harsh, but I felt with the DAC in the chain it helped this.

And thirdly, I would say overall detail was higher. If a cheapo DAC renders 85% of the material pretty well and kind of mucks over the rest, then little details in the background or foreground can be lost. Or maybe the sound is more veiled or muddied. I don't have this with the Insight DAC. If someone is yelling into the mike and there are raindrops in the background, I'll hear it. On complex tracks with pianos and saxes and guitars and drums and whatever combination you like, you can hear each piece.

The DAC was the first thing I was going to drop if I hit the end of my budget, but I'm glad I didn't. Its been a wonderful surprise for me, and if I can get anymore funds, I'd like to procure a Vision DAC EC so I can hook up more sources. Highly recommended if you are on the fence about a DAC.

[coke]

coke -

I don't have any experience with the Vision DAC, but I do have an Insight DAC that is almost a year old now. I pair it with Salk HT2-TL's and a SB Duet.

The DAC was the last piece to arrive from Frank, and so I had to run the SB DAC for awhile. Certainly, running a SB through Frank's preamps and amps hooked up to an HT2-TL sounds really good. The addition of the DAC was the cherry on top.

On the face of it, the Duet is $300, of which a fair portion of it is probably for the remote. The actual DAC section may cost them a couple bucks, compared to a dedicated DAC, which Frank's engineering team has several hundred dollars invested in to build with expert hands. So you could certainly expect a more faithful reproduction of the analog signal because all it does is reproduce that waveform.

What difference does this make? To my ears the difference was significant. I kind of imagine it this way, a cheap dac is going to give me its best production in the wide center of frequency content, but the extended lows and highs are probably not as represented as they should be. The first thing I noticed with the Insight DAC was the fact that the entire frequency spectrum felt like it was being pulled out to the fullest, giving the amps and speakers the best representation of the source material possible.

So certainly, I felt the bass and the treble were better represented by the time it hit my ears. The second thing is that the sound was smoother. People would describe it as buttery, but in general, I would say that the sound was more natural or liquid. Some people don't like digital because its supposed to be harsh, but I felt with the DAC in the chain it helped this.

And thirdly, I would say overall detail was higher. If a cheapo DAC renders 85% of the material pretty well and kind of mucks over the rest, then little details in the background or foreground can be lost. Or maybe the sound is more veiled or muddied. I don't have this with the Insight DAC. If someone is yelling into the mike and there are raindrops in the background, I'll hear it. On complex tracks with pianos and saxes and guitars and drums and whatever combination you like, you can hear each piece.

The DAC was the first thing I was going to drop if I hit the end of my budget, but I'm glad I didn't. Its been a wonderful surprise for me, and if I can get anymore funds, I'd like to procure a Vision DAC EC so I can hook up more sources. Highly recommended if you are on the fence about a DAC.

That's the exact type of response I was hoping for.  Thanks 

I'd already have one of Frank's DACs, but i have 4 or 5 other expensive hobbies that seem to take away from my audio budget 

[trebejo]

I think floresjc summed it up pretty well. I have been using a squeezebox for many years now, and it has a pretty capable little DAC. It took a while to persuade me to get an external DAC, started with one of those little Cambridge jobs that had nice specs and that was OK but the upgrade was subtle at best.

Meanwhile the rest of the chain got upgrades--speakers, amp, preamp. When I got one of Frank's amps, I saw the light. 

(Now I have to put on shades)

I thought about ordering a DAC from Frank but the funds were just not there. Then I got lucky and scored a used ultradac a few months ago (funds were probably not there either!). Funny thing happened there--the instant a/b test (using the preamp switch) against the cambridge dac did not seem to make much of a difference. But listening to a song from beginning to end, ah, yes, there is a difference, and it's not really subtle if you pay attention.

Bottom line? I think you can start on Frank's path down at the amp (most people would probably do that) or at the DAC, or at the preamp. In any case, every time you put another AVA piece in the chain, you should definitely hear the "Frank Effect".

If you can afford it, I think it's an easy decision. And if you can't, look at the used stuff! Don't worry, Frank will still talk to ya.  But at this particular moment in AVA history, the combination of lower prices and recent upgrades makes getting a new DAC straight from Frank a very good deal even compared to getting an older model.

So what happens if you call Frank and get the DAC and you don't like it? You can send it back for a full refund, or if you take too long to make up your mind, you can sell it and you won't lose very much money. Just as a for instance, there was an ultravalve that went up on censorshipagon a couple of months ago for about 25% less than a new one, and it went so fast that by the time I saw the ad it was already sold (same-day turnaround). A DAC is less sexy than an amp (though which is more important will be debated!), but I cannot imagine that a similar ad for a Vision DAC would last more than a weekend.

[coke]

Honestly the price for the Vision DAC is very reasonable and I could easily afford one.  I'm just trying to convince myself to spend the money on one of those instead of spending it on one of my other hobbies 

Thanks again for the helpful responses.

[mchuckp]

From my experience with some DACs, I'm of the opinion that if you are using a "decent" source, you need to invest in a "good" DAC to make it worth your while.  I do not own an AVA DAC but have heard them at shows and know plenty of respected folks in these forums that really like them and I don't think you could go wrong with one.  Being an AVA thread, I'm not gonna go recommend others to consider.

I've tried a SB Duet and was VERY underwhelmed by the performance in it's stock form.  I currently have a SB Touch.  I think it is much better than the Duet but still not to the level of what I consider should be in a "reference" system.  However, running the Touch through my DAC, it bests my Oppo 83 SE using AppleLossless files.  I think SB's are good for the money, but not good enough for a top tier audio system without a dedicated DAC or at least some mods.

Given the gear you have, I don't think you will be disappointed with the results if you can swing the cash. There's some great DACs out there and Frank's is one of them.