[Wind Chaser]

After the first 20 hours of listening to the Double+ I stopped paying attention to it. I had already been communicating with other Double+ owners who independently confirmed that I would need at least 100 hours on the amp before everything would settle out. I let it play to get past the 100 hour point literally without being in the same room, so as not to be influenced any further by what I had heard. What I heard when I came back was very much improved over what I heard when I first got the amp, so that much was proven out.

And some people seriously think AVA equipment is beyond the burn in, break in phenomena! 

[TjMV3]

I think festuss was making the same point you are (albeit less helpfully).

Oh.  So he was being sarcastic?  My mistake.  Sarcasm at times can be difficult to detect on the internet. 

[TjMV3]

And some people seriously think AVA equipment is beyond the burn in, break in phenomena! 

There's a really good gust of wind about to hit off the coast of North Carolina,   by the Outer Banks.  Go chase it.

[turkey]

There's a really good gust of wind about to hit off the coast of North Carolina,   by the Outer Banks.  Go chase it.

I heard on the radio this morning that they're going to get hit pretty hard.

I have a lot of co-workers in NC, plus some relatives. Rick Craig is from there and there are quite a few other AC members from the Carolinas.

I hope everyone will be ok down there.

[TjMV3]

I heard on the radio this morning that they're going to get hit pretty hard.

I have a lot of co-workers in NC, plus some relatives. Rick Craig is from there and there are quite a few other AC members from the Carolinas.

I hope everyone will be ok down there.

Right now it looks like the east coast (the Outer Banks ) area is going to get hit.   Listening to the radio this morning and they reported an evacuation of the area.

It's difficult to know how far inland this will come,  right now.   Where are your relatives,   co-workers and Rick Craig located?   

I'm about 50 minutes north and slightly east of Charlotte (roughly 5 to 6 hours),  (348 miles )west of the Outer Banks.   We're keeping an eye out to see where this leads. 


Hopefully,  it dies out or some how gets re-directed back out to sea. 

[turkey]

It's difficult to know how far inland this will come,  right now.   Where are your relatives,   co-workers and Rick Craig located?   

Raleigh.

I have relatives in Raleigh and Cary. Co-workers in Raleigh (that's where corp hq is). Rick is in Garner.

At least Rick is a woodworker, so he can build an ark if worst comes to worst.

[avahifi]

My own personal problem with break in issues is that I simply can't hear the effect at all.

I bench test and listen to every new piece of AVA equipment going out the door here.  I also have standard demo units of all sorts, many with hundreds of hours of listening time on them.

I simply cannot hear any difference between a brand new unit fresh off the test bench and my well "burned in" demo samples in day to day testing operations.

Maybe I am just going deaf.  However my hearing seems to be adequate to pick up the improvements made with new engineering ideas put into hardware and seems to correlate well with what my other experienced people here hear too.

I think it would be great if I could confirm my client's reports of nice musical performance improvements as the equipment gets more hours of use.  We could then even "pre-burn in" the equipment before shipping to provide the clients with the best possible first use impressions of our equipment.

But darn it, I just can't do that, because in our experience, it just is not happening.

Do we know everything about audio?  Of course not.  Do we think that every aspect of our designs can be measured on the bench?  Of course not.  The Ultravalve vacuum tube amplifier sets new standards for transparency and dynamics for a small tube amp, especially its amazing bass reach, definition, and power.  We know why - - - it is because of its unique and superior power supply design.  However we cannot measure a whit of difference in any aspect of its performance with, or without the improved power supply.  The differences are simply too small to measure.  But at least we try to document what is happening and we understand it from an electronic engineering standpoint.

My issue with the "screw the targeting computer Luke, just eyeball it" group, is their rather fanatical refusal to pursue any form of objective evaluations, either double blind testing or measurements. I would be much more comfortable with their claims if there was any objective support there at all.

As I pointed out after the double blind test of MIT cables at the RMAF compared to 16 gauge zip wire, (results - random) a prospective buyer could have purchased the Salk SongTowers and our amplifier for the same price as buying the Salk SongTowers and the MIT cables and no amplifier at all.  I suspect the system would work better with both the speakers and the amplifier and standard cables than the same money spent for the speakers and expensive cables.  Somehow, without an amplifier, I suspect the system would not have been as useful.

The point I have always tried to make, usually unsuccessfully, was that I think putting your audio budget into good performing equipment first and last will provide better results than skimping on the equipment in favor of high priced accessories, or spending a lot more than necessary for likely dubious improvements.

Sure, if you have money to spare, by the "best" accessory equipment you can afford, but in my book that probably would be either for extending your source music library or tickets to the live performances.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[TjMV3]

Raleigh.

I have relatives in Raleigh and Cary. Co-workers in Raleigh (that's where corp hq is). Rick is in Garner.

At least Rick is a woodworker, so he can build an ark if worst comes to worst.

Well Raleigh is about an hour and a half from me.  Raleigh,  Cary and Garner are all in the same basic area.   Close enough.

We're hoping this thing doesn't come ashore or inland.  And if it does,  we're hoping it's verocity is greatly reduced.  Typically that's what happens.  The storm gets battered down and slowed down.  And we,  us,  out here in the more general west area (compared to the coast);  we get some winds and heavy rain.   Some times a little more intense for comfort,  but not really damaging.   So here's to hoping we all avoid this thing.   Best wishes to the people on the coast and may they stay safe!!!

[mfsoa]

Tony,

IME, increase in transparency often leads to less soudstage depth, and vice-versa so I don't think your observations are off-base at all. IME. IMHO.  The more transparently the minor details are presented, the more foreward they sound, maybe, like the opposite of a painting where fuzziness is used to create depth.

Throw a blanket over the speakers and i doubt the soundstage is gonna jump out at ya' 

Very good review, thanks for the effort.

-Mike

[aln]

Thank you Frank for your observation on break in that not many of us could make.  A very thoughtful reply.

Regards
AL N

[Wayner]

IME, increase in transparency often leads to less soudstage depth, and vice-versa so I don't think your observations are off-base at all. IME. IMHO.  The more transparently the minor details are presented, the more foreward they sound, maybe, like the opposite of a painting where fuzziness is used to create depth.

Mike, how can you ever come up with this conclusion? The preamp, amp and source can't just pick out a little detail and put it into your face "because it's more transparent". The entire signal is treated equally (at least in equipment that is well designed) and delivered to your speakers in the same ratios, in all frequencies and all details.

Equipment that has a high degree of "transparency" has no color of it's own, adds or subtracts nothing to the original signal, a wire with gain, if you will.

I have noticed the same thing with turntables and proper set up. All of a sudden, if things are set correctly, the table will simply let you know that it is happy.

Why? Because finally the machine was for all practical purposes, taken out of the loop. You only hear what is in those tiny, microscopic grooves, it is heavenly bliss, the equipment has become "transparent"

Wayner

[bummrush]

Basically people have forgotten the value of a dollar and how to maximize it's use.

[mfsoa]

Maybe what I meant is that in general, systems that are less revealing of small details - systems that overall gloss over the small stuff (what I'd call less transparent) often have a greater sense of depth.  And systems that seem to accentuate detail sometimes lose that sense of depth since the small stuff is more apparent. IME.

Maybe there is something non-linear at work here, where the "transparent" system vs. the "non-transparent" system are closer in their representation of the main bulk of the music, but differ more in how they handle the small details. Like if one system has more noise it'll obscure a greater percentage of the small stuff relative to the big stuff.

Maybe we mean different things by "transparent"?

Wow, I thought I put enough IMEs and IMOs in that last post to avoid the  but now I see that I am not entitled to hold that certain opinion. Forgot I was on the AVA circle.

I slink back under my rock...

(Maybe it's just me, but "How can you ever come up with..." comes across much different than "I'm curious as to why you feel that...")  A scolding vs. an inquiry. 

-Mike

[Wayner]

Mike,

Don't do that. No flaming was intended. I kind of think what Brian was saying is what I was trying to get at. When a system becomes transparent, the music blooms, you hear all of the air in the recording, the reverb used, the shimmering of cymbals, the sound of a guitar pick on the strings, but also the ambiance around the recording room. If the system can't recover the ambiance of the recording, it is not transparent and is failing in the details.

The details are your friend, ear candy if you will. That is what adds the excitement to the listening experience. That is what I strive for in all of my systems. If I don't hear that, something is wrong.

In fact, I think that if you don't hear these qualities and the music is in your face, I think your system is not recovering all of the musical information, or abusing the small signals, simply not playing them at the correct level.

Wayner

[mfsoa]

Thanks, Wayner

 

[tonyptony]

I think it would be great if I could confirm my client's reports of nice musical performance improvements as the equipment gets more hours of use.  We could then even "pre-burn in" the equipment before shipping to provide the clients with the best possible first use impressions of our equipment.

I hesitate to respond because I don't want this to turn into another debate which has already been moved from the AVA forum.

Frank, I make no claim to understanding why this happens, but I believe my testing methodology is rigorous enough to discount "ears getting used to how things sound". I think (hope) I've come up with a reasonably objective testing methodolgy - I've been a radar systems readiness and test engineer for close to 30 years! I know a little bit about identifying and eliminating corrupting factors from a test plan. One of my test criteria is not to listen to the system while it is playing for that period of time, except for short prescribed listening sessions. Easy enough to do in my house since both my wife and are out of the house when this phase is underway. BTW I'm also about as far from a "read it and believe it" type as you can get.

Do I believe the sound changed over that couple of hundred hours within which there were three very specifically planned out short listening sessions? Yes. Did my wife identify the same changes in an unprompted manner which I believed I heard? Yes. Do I care about it anymore? No. I'm satisfied enough with the outcome to use my system for its intended purpose. It makes music.

[festuss]

   Ears get used to anything over time.  Which is why you go deaf from listening to loud stuff over time, you don't realize it's happening till after the fact later on, when you realize you can't hear things you used to hear.  OR, when the ringing begins and it doesn't go away.  After 30 years of reading advertisements about claims of total nonsense about mystical wires and connectors, that need 100 hours, to function fully.  You have been subjected to subliminal influences.  Of course you are immune to this, since you watch a radar screen, or have developed a procedure, you claim discounts all of this. If you don't think YOU are the one changing and not the equipment, why do humans have mood changes, and different reactions to temperatures?  But you say that's not happening but the inanimate solid state sealed from the environment is changing?  Think about how illogical that is.     Please also explain the 100 hour proclamation?  If it changes, it's unstable, send it back for repair.  Non of my several AVA components over the years, ever changed, they never drifted, I must have good ones.  When was teh last time you had your ears checked and cleaned.  Start with reality basics.

[tonyptony]

When was teh last time you had your ears checked and cleaned.  Start with reality basics.

I'm 50 years old. The last time I had my hearing checked (a full frequency check including bone conduction and tympanogram, BTW) less than two years ago I was 2dB down at 18KHz, and 7dB down at 20KHz. 10dB is the threshold for "slight" hearing loss, 25 the threshold for "mild". In a quiet listening room I can easily pick out 18KHz tones from my speaker system (a RTA of my listening space shows the energy at that frequency is 5dB down, pretty much what you'd expect).

I don't listen "to loud stuff over time".

[festuss]

   What goes wrong is logic is out the door.  Reality is beaten by subliminal advertising over the years.  There is no "break in".  Let alone YOU hearing these changes.
  Is Exicon producing defective stuff, or is the resistor or capacitor makers, sending Frank defects?  They have stability problems?  You might need to get your speaker wires off the floor, it's changing the sound.

[festuss]

However, every new setup requires a re-evaluation of surrounding factors. I will have to look at this carefully after I'm satisfied that the Double+ really has burned in fully. One of my observations was the vast improvement in high end after 100 hours. Who knows? It may get even better with more time.
 
Frank, does he have a defective component ?  The highs IMPROVED after 100 hours.  Why 100 hours?  Is there some data on how SS devices, and precision resistors, capacitors, with extremely stable properties, drift, but only in this guys house, on MARS?  Because the parts may not be suited for Martian atmosphere.  He needs MARS Spec'd stuff.  What happens in 500 hours?  VAST IMPROVEMENT!  Smart enough to buy AVA equipment, but still dopey enough to get caught in the bizarre world of "audiophile" nonsense.