RAAL

Vulcan00 · « **on:** 1 Jul 2010, 05:09 pm »

I noticed the SongTower and HT3 are offered with the RAAL.

Is the LCY Done?

jtwrace · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Jul 2010, 05:10 pm »

RAAL is an upgrade from what I understand. ~$200

coke · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Jul 2010, 05:16 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 1 Jul 2010, 05:10 pm

RAAL is an upgrade from what I understand. ~$200

On the website, it looks like the RAAL has replaced the LCY as the upgrade option.

jtwrace · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Jul 2010, 05:19 pm »

Quote from: coke on 1 Jul 2010, 05:16 pm

On the website, it looks like the RAAL has replaced the LCY as the upgrade option.

HoosierInOhio posted this:
It turns out that they ran out of LCY tweeters, and it would be at least 45 days until the next shipment. Jim listed 3 possible options: Wait for new LCY's, a different tweeter (not sure which), or the RAAL (which involves a new x-over build and a new hole in the cabinets). Jim said they were going with option 3 at no cost to me as the RAAL's more than a $200 or so increase over the LCY's.

This is where http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=83049.msg801757;topicseen#new

ricardojoa · « **Reply #4 on:** 1 Jul 2010, 05:28 pm »

That is very interesting. Wouldnt the two tweeter sound different?

Nuance · « **Reply #5 on:** 1 Jul 2010, 05:30 pm »

Wow - that's pretty cool of Jim and Dennis to offer such an upgrade. This just further fuels my necessity to tell everyone how great Salk's products are!

jtwrace · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Jul 2010, 05:41 pm »

Hoosier

I see you reading this thread.

STOP! Go finish your work so you can get done and unpack the speakers and POST PICS.

DO IT!!!

DMurphy · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Jul 2010, 05:51 pm »

Quote from: ricardojoa on 1 Jul 2010, 05:28 pm

That is very interesting. Wouldnt the two tweeter sound different?

Yes-they do sound a little different (see my other post). But I'll be completely redoing the crossovers for each speaker model. Jim won't just stick a RAAL in instead of an LCY.

Vulcan00 · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Jul 2010, 06:10 pm »

Quote from: Nuance on 1 Jul 2010, 05:30 pm

Wow - that's pretty cool of Jim and Dennis to offer such an upgrade. This just further fuels my necessity to tell everyone how great Salk's products are!

I,m glad your excited about it.

jsalk · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Jul 2010, 06:57 pm »

A little background...

For the past few years, we purchased more LCY 110's than anyone I am aware of. We simply outgrew the supply recently and LCY informed us that there would be a significant delay in getting magnets to build more drivers. So we, in turn, were looking at a significant delay in being able to deliver speakers that used them. Also at that time, we had just completed our SoundScape project and really liked the RAAL tweeter.

Examining our options and wanting to make sure we had a steady supply of whatever tweeters we used, we contacted RAAL and they assured us they could keep us in constant supply.

Since some had asked about a potential RAAL upgrade on the HT2-TL's, we thought this would be a good opportunity to work out a RAAL version. We also decided we would do the same for almost every ribbon-based model we produce.

We were working on an updated version of our web site at the time and I did not want to re-do everything once we had that update complete. Since it looked like RAAL tweeters might become the standard, I went ahead and put them in the specifications pages on our web site.

Of course, LCY does not want to lose us as a customer and must have found a way to speed up delivery of the next batch of tweeters. I say that because they are now back in supply.

A question remains as to whether the RAAL's will be an upgrade or will be the new standard ribbon tweeter. We'll wait to sort that out. But they will be available on all models either way (either as the standard ribbon tweeter or as an upgrade).

We have developed a very good relationship with RAAL and they have been very responsive to our needs. They helped develop a custom version of their OEM tweeter just for us and have made good, so far, in terms of shipping the tweeters we need on time.

It is not our intention to create confusion here, but the opportunity presented itself and we simply had to take advantage of it. We consider the RAAL ribbon tweeter being built for us to be about the most accurate ribbon being manufactured today. And since we constantly look to improve all of our products, it only made sense to make them available - one way or the other.

- Jim

Saturn94 · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Jul 2010, 02:29 am »

As someone who is considering the purchase of a pair of HT2-TLs I hope you keep the RAAL tweeter as standard.

Hopefully I will be able to meet with Dennis later this month and hear the HT2-TL with the RAAL tweeter to see if it will be the speaker to replace my ADS L1290s.

Just found this quote from Dennis:

Quote

...The RAAL does not sound quite like other tweeters--including other ribbons. The mid-highs in the 8-10kHz range are not as intense--there's less ssssssssssssssss. I think that's just due to a complete lack of distortion or accentuation....

Sounds like my kind of tweeter!

PS - I noticed in Hoosier's pictures of his HT2-TLs that the RAAL tweeter is offset to one side (I've noticed this in some other models as well). What is the purpose of this?

jsalk · « **Reply #11 on:** 2 Jul 2010, 04:01 am »

Quote from: Saturn94 on 2 Jul 2010, 02:29 am

I noticed in Hoosier's pictures of his HT2-TLs that the RAAL tweeter is offset to one side (I've noticed this in some other models as well). What is the purpose of this?

It is to control diffraction artifacts. That is also why the edges of the cabinets around the drivers are rounded over.

When sound leaves a driver, it tends to travel in all directions. Very high-frequencies have such short wavelengths, however, they don't make it to the edge of the cabinet. Instead, they bounce off the front baffle and are reflected toward the listening position. (That is why you don't hear high treble when standing behind a speaker.)

As frequencies get lower and the wavelengths increase, the signals move toward the edges of the cabinets. And as they go even lower, they pass completely around the cabinets.

But at a certain frequency, the wavelength is just right and the signal hits the cabinet edge. The result is turbulence. The sharper the edge, the more turbulence is created and you can see it in the FR measurements. That is why you see the edges of cabinets rounded over. Rounded edges help mitigate some of this effect and are better than the sharp edges you often see on less expensive speakers (cabinets are less costly to build with 90-degree corners).

By off-setting the tweeters, you essentially have two distances to the cabinet edges rather than one. So the diffraction artifacts appear at two frequencies rather than one. But each is half the amplitude. So while the artifacts are still there, their impact is cut in half.

The goal here is to minimize the impact of diffraction artifacts as sound hits the edges of the cabinets. You can't completely eliminate it (unless you have no baffle or a baffle of infinite size), but you can minimize it by rounding over the edges, creating a smoother transition and by spreading its effect over multiple frequencies with less resulting impact at any given frequency.

I hope that made sense.

- Jim

mchuckp · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Jul 2010, 04:34 am »

So Jim, if YOU were buying your speakers which would you pick? LCY or RAAL.

Is the RAAL an upgrade in your book or just a different sonic flavor?

funkmonkey · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 Jul 2010, 04:52 am »

Quote from: mchuckp on 2 Jul 2010, 04:34 am

So Jim, if YOU were buying your speakers which would you pick? LCY or RAAL.

Is the RAAL an upgrade in your book or just a different sonic flavor?

I'm guessing that since the RAAL is the tweeter of choice for the "flagship" SoundScapes, that it is the best darn tweeter Jim and Dennis could find, period.

jtwrace · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Jul 2010, 11:06 am »

I wouldn't think twice. RAAL! They're the best ribbon I've ever heard thus far...

Mudslide · « **Reply #15 on:** 2 Jul 2010, 01:24 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 2 Jul 2010, 11:06 am

I wouldn't think twice. RAAL! They're the best ribbon I've ever heard thus far...

This statement would hold up in my court of law!! Truth to my ears. RAAL!

jtwrace · « **Reply #16 on:** 2 Jul 2010, 01:28 pm »

I've heard great things about http://www.newformresearch.com/bare-ribbons.htm but the RAAL is just hard to go away from IMO.

It does what you would want. promise.

Saturn94 · « **Reply #17 on:** 2 Jul 2010, 01:41 pm »

Quote from: jsalk on 2 Jul 2010, 04:01 am

It is to control diffraction artifacts. That is also why the edges of the cabinets around the drivers are rounded over.

When sound leaves a driver, it tends to travel in all directions. Very high-frequencies have such short wavelengths, however, they don't make it to the edge of the cabinet. Instead, they bounce off the front baffle and are reflected toward the listening position. (That is why you don't hear high treble when standing behind a speaker.)

As frequencies get lower and the wavelengths increase, the signals move toward the edges of the cabinets. And as they go even lower, they pass completely around the cabinets.

But at a certain frequency, the wavelength is just right and the signal hits the cabinet edge. The result is turbulence. The sharper the edge, the more turbulence is created and you can see it in the FR measurements. That is why you see the edges of cabinets rounded over. Rounded edges helps mitigate some of this effect and are better than sharp edges you often see on less expensive speakers (they are easier to build with 90-degree corners).

By off-setting the tweeters, you essentially have two distances to the cabinet edges rather than one. So the diffraction artifacts appear at two frequencies rather than one. But each is half the amplitude. So while the artifacts are still there, their impact is cut in half.

The goal here is to minimize the impact of diffraction artifacts as sound hits the edges of the cabinets. You can't completely eliminate it (unless you have no baffle or a baffle of infinite size), but you can minimize it by rounding over the edges, creating a smoother transition and by spreading its effect over multiple frequencies with less resulting impact at any given frequency.

I hope that made sense.

- Jim

Thanks. That made perfect sense.

Jeff B. · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 02:30 am »

Pretty decent description, Jim. It's a topic that confuses a lot of people. When I get a round-tuit I plan to write my next article on understanding diffraction. I will probably include some graphs to help explain things too.

Jeff

DMurphy · « **Reply #19 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 05:54 pm »

Hey Jeff Let me grab you on one of your infrequent visits. Based on your real world experiences, and simulations with your software, can you say anything about how much benefit from roundover (let's say 3/4") you lose if you just radius the sides of the baffle around the mid and tweet and not the top? The former can be done much easier with veneer than the latter, so I'm curious what the cost-benefit is. Thanks.