One.2 Questions

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justplainmike

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One.2 Questions
« on: 28 Jun 2010, 03:46 am »
Hi All,

    I've been lurking in the forums for quite some time.  Seth, I've read alot of your posts, seen your website and the reviews of your product.  You seem like someone who treats their work as a labor of love and I really respect that.  I'm also impressed with and appreciative of the many posters who take their time and answer questions here with knowledge and enthusiasm.  So thanks to everyone on the forum.

    I've been on a Tripath kick lately.  But I sold my Sonic Impact Super T amp to upgrade to the new DTA-100 (50...er more like 30 real undistorted watts per channel).  I running a Squeezebox 3 coax out to an Audio-Gd headphone/pre-amp out to some Axiom Audio M3 Ti's and a small powered subwoofer (Mirage S8).   

    I had the amp running out to the high level inputs into the sub and then out to the speakers. 
This was sounding really pretty good.  Powerwise it was a step up from the Sonic Super T-amp.  Sound quality was decent but I wouldn't say better then the Super T. 

    It's a moot point now.  My amp died yesterday.  I'm going to get an RMA and send it back.  But I'm not sure I want a replacement.  I've been coveting a Virtue amp for awhile now but haven't wanted to spend the money on one.  Not that they aren't worth it.  I just didn't want to commit the money to my bedroom setup.

    I'm thinking of getting a One.2.  I like that it has a nice stepped attenuator (I can run it from the DAC out of my Compass and just have one volume pot in the pathway).  I also really want a line level Sub output (AND the 80hz cutoff).  The price is a little higher than what I want to go, but after reading the forums and the website for too long already, I'm prepared to cave...Seth, again, I think your prices are more than fair..I'm just cheap and fresh outta school! 
   
    So this brings me to a couple of questions:
1.  How many watts into 8ohms am I going to get with the stock power supply?With the 30v/130watt supply?
2.  Will either output give decently loud sound in a bedroom that's ~12x14x8-12ft sloped ceiling?

Anyhow, any help on this will be appreciated.  Thanks again for everyone's time and enjoy your Virtue amps!!

Mike 

srb

Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #1 on: 28 Jun 2010, 04:00 am »
    I had the amp running out to the high level inputs into the sub and then out to the speakers. 
    It's a moot point now.  My amp died yesterday.

I thought that all Tripath amplifier speaker outputs had a floating non-common ground, and that you couldn't connect them to common ground subwoofer speaker level inputs.  But I also thought that would result in an immediate short circuit rather than normal operation followed by amplifier failure sometime later.
 
Steve

virtue

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #2 on: 28 Jun 2010, 04:16 am »
Hehe, hey Mike, how are you?

I've only had one customer who migrated from the DTA-100.  He said he was getting twice the output with the same PSU using our amp and that they were "SO not in the same league."  I know that I pay more for assembly than PE pays for the entire amp, including power supply.  So PE really has some market power but while they make some great products, this is not one of them.

The short answer is that the small supply works fine and will give you around 30wpc @ 8 ohms, I think.  You'll get up around 40wpc with the 30/130w supply @ 8 ohms.  Here are the measurements:

http://store.virtueaudio.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=VRTU%2DIA%2DVAONE%2E2%2DPBF%2D1&PhotoNumber=5

So, welcome aboard.  Start small and upgrade your PSU as your fortunes improve!


justplainmike

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #3 on: 28 Jun 2010, 04:16 am »
Well, I'm wondering if that's the case too.  The amp ran like a champ for about a week.  Then in the middle of a song just died.  It's definitely an argument for a line level sub output huh? :-)

virtue

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #4 on: 28 Jun 2010, 04:22 am »
If the high-level sub were the issue, it would have blown immediately I think.

If you've opened up that amp you'll see that the quality is only skin-deep.  The PCB is quite simply a piece of crap - just terrible engineering and construction. 

I heard that Hilly makes it but I could be wrong.

justplainmike

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #5 on: 28 Jun 2010, 04:39 am »
Hi Seth and Steve,

   Thanks for the replies.  I hope it wasn't the high level output to the sub from the amp that killed it.  And I hope my sub is still ok come to think of it.  While my Super T-amp didn't have the highest quality fit and finish, my DTA-100 was really kind of cheap feeling by comparison.  I thought it wouldn't matter what the outside looked like...it was going in a cabinet to be heard and not seen.  I love the tripath sound but I don't think I'm going to get it w/the DTA-100...sooo RMA and refund time I think. :-)
    I also think that if I can get close to the output from a One.2 with the stock PSU and the owner of the company replies to my message on the forum, then it's worth a shot!  Making my order now.  Thanks again!

Mike

ltr317

Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #6 on: 28 Jun 2010, 05:09 am »
Hi Mike,

I'm been testing a Sensation M451 with several different power supplies that Seth loan me, and the smallest 24v/65 watt ps plays plenty loud with my 92 db sensitive speakers in my bedroom system.  My bedroom is 13x14x10 which is similar in size to your room.  I don't know the sensitivity of your speakers, but you can use my measurements as a guideline. 

Btw, I've heard either the original Sonic T, Super T and Trends amps many times in different systems.  At best, they are okay but really lack the refinement of the better tripath and other digital switching amps, especially if you have good resolving associated equipment.  I often heard grittiness, veiling and lack of fine detail with the Sonic and Trends amps.  For the money and some situations they do the job, but if one wants them to be part of a hi-end sounding system then they fall short.  One doesn't need to spend a lot of money to achieve good sound, but unfortunately there is a minimum amount one must spend to get to that level. 

Cheers,
Paul

justplainmike

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #7 on: 28 Jun 2010, 05:35 am »
Hi Paul,

Well, we'll find out.  I just pulled the trigger on a One.2...white finish :-).  Going for the stock PSU right now.  Will probably upgrade to either battery or the 30v/130w supply when I figure out which will work best for me.  For now, I'll be counting down the days until it gets here!!  Can't wait to be a part of the club here :-)  Cheers!

Mike

eclein

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #8 on: 28 Jun 2010, 12:42 pm »
Mike..
 Welcome aboard!!! These little babies just sound awesome..I think you'll like the ONE.2!!! :thumb: :thumb:
 Ed

jtwrace

Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #9 on: 28 Jun 2010, 01:07 pm »
Hi Paul,

Well, we'll find out.  I just pulled the trigger on a One.2...white finish :-).  Going for the stock PSU right now.  Will probably upgrade to either battery or the 30v/130w supply when I figure out which will work best for me.  For now, I'll be counting down the days until it gets here!!  Can't wait to be a part of the club here :-)  Cheers!

Mike

Mike,

I think you're going to be VERY happy with your purchase.  These are really sweet!   :thumb:

justplainmike

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #10 on: 28 Jun 2010, 02:19 pm »
"If you went with the stock battery supply, you're only tapping into a fraction of what the amp has to offer. The better the power supply, the better the sound of the amp. You're still going to love your new amp.  zman"  hi zman,  I'm looking forward to upgrading down the road.  Just want to get started and hear what the stock configuration sounds like.  I'll be bugging the forum members in due time about batteries vs. psu vs linear supplies!  Can't wait to tinker!   

CSI

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #11 on: 28 Jun 2010, 05:11 pm »
I also ordered my new Two.2 with the standard PS for openers. I want to see what all the shouting is about before upgrading. I expect I will eventually opt for either JT's switching supply or the Red Wine Black Lightning but first I want to get it broken in and compare it to my other amp, my beloved Khartago. I'll write up my impressions as well in due course. The Virtue is due this Friday.

brother love

Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #12 on: 28 Jun 2010, 07:39 pm »
...The short answer is that the small supply works fine and will give you around 30wpc @ 8 ohms, I think.  You'll get up around 40wpc with the 30/130w supply @ 8 ohms.  Here are the measurements:

http://store.virtueaudio.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=VRTU%2DIA%2DVAONE%2E2%2DPBF%2D1&PhotoNumber=5

Seth, the Virtue Audio website is a bit confusing to me re: One.2 wattage #'s ...

One.2  description features bullet item says "max 30v 87 wpc @ 4 ohms" ; then power specs just below that show "30v/130w 55wpc/ 90w+ mono"

Sensation & Virtue amp table repeats "max RMS @ 4 ohms**  87 wpc"

Footnote then states:

"** Power is approximately half (44 wpc) into 8 ohms. With the 130w supply, you will achieve max output into 8 ohms."

Can you clarify this?  Is it peak power vs. continuous power?

I remember in Circuits class that E= IR & P= VI, but I can't reconcile the #'s based on the data above.  Then again, I'm an ME, not an EE.  :lol:

justplainmike

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #13 on: 28 Jun 2010, 07:44 pm »
I also ordered my new Two.2 with the standard PS for openers. I want to see what all the shouting is about before upgrading. I expect I will eventually opt for either JT's switching supply or the Red Wine Black Lightning but first I want to get it broken in and compare it to my other amp, my beloved Khartago. I'll write up my impressions as well in due course. The Virtue is due this Friday.

I'll look forward to reading your impressions as well.  Any reason you're leaning only towards battery power?  Thanks.

CSI

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #14 on: 28 Jun 2010, 08:11 pm »
"I'll look forward to reading your impressions as well.  Any reason you're leaning only towards battery power?  Thanks".

Thanks for asking.

I'm not. The JT PS I meant to refer to is the linear Antek listed on the Virtue site so it will likely be battery vs. powered PS when (if?) I upgrade. I'm taking my cue here from James who has lived with both (though not used with a Two.2 specifically). He loves them both but for different reasons. In his set up, the Red Wine battery unit sounded more solid ("center of the earth solid" was his phrase) with the blackest background. The JT unit was perhaps slightly livelier. Seth also seems to prefer the JT. To me, without having heard either of them yet, this sounds like two flavors of good. Having experience with battery products from both Gary Dodd and Vinnie Rossi I'm a firm believer in getting off the grid whenever possible. However, high efficiency speakers and dirty AC power (neither one an issue in my system) could be the determining factor. That and cost. I haven't always been able to afford the Red Wine Audio stuff but it has always been worth it when I've stepped up to the bar. I will never give up my Isabellina.

So it will be personal preference, synergy and budget that determines the case for me.

justplainmike

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #15 on: 29 Jun 2010, 05:32 am »

 However, high efficiency speakers and dirty AC power (neither one an issue in my system) could be the determining factor. That and cost. I haven't always been able to afford the Red Wine Audio stuff but it has always been worth it when I've stepped up to the bar. I will never give up my Isabellina.

So it will be personal preference, synergy and budget that determines the case for me.

What's considered high efficiency in a speaker?  Greater than 95db/w/m?  I love the sound of my Axiom's but they're only between 89-92db (anechoic vs room) sensitive...middle of the road from what I'm able to surmise.  My guess is that I'll get more initially out of just cutting off at 80hz and running the line level to my sub.  But, if I had to choose, I think I'd go for the black background.  My first dabble in "bang for the buck low-fi" was a Panny XR-55 and what struck me initially was the completely black noise floor. 

Who knows?  Maybe I'll end up trying both and selling one on the forum or Audiogon :-)

Counting down the days!

Mike

virtue

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #16 on: 29 Jun 2010, 07:09 am »
Re: brother love... sorry for the confusing stats.

You'll get 87 wpc @ 4 ohms using a 30v high-current supply.  You can't practically do this using batteries since a 24v battery pack only gives you around 27v.  The JT or Astron supplies will give you 30v.  But many customers have noticed that the extra 3v don't mean much.

With 8 ohms, you get around half that and the 30v/130w supply will give you all the current you need to hit the ceiling.

CSI

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #17 on: 29 Jun 2010, 08:20 pm »
What's considered high efficiency in a speaker?  Greater than 95db/w/m?  I love the sound of my Axiom's but they're only between 89-92db (anechoic vs room) sensitive...middle of the road from what I'm able to surmise.  My guess is that I'll get more initially out of just cutting off at 80hz and running the line level to my sub.  But, if I had to choose, I think I'd go for the black background.  My first dabble in "bang for the buck low-fi" was a Panny XR-55 and what struck me initially was the completely black noise floor. 

Who knows?  Maybe I'll end up trying both and selling one on the forum or Audiogon :-)

Counting down the days!

Mike

There's no hard and fast rule for published speaker efficiency specs. Mine are considered medium at 86 dB and play plenty loud in my small room with anything over 35 watts. In comparison, I'd think yours could be considered high efficiency. All things remaining equal, lowering speaker sensitivity by 3 dB will require twice the amp power to get to the same output level. However, room size, taste in volume level, etc. will play a huge roll. The relevancy to power supplies has to do with signal to noise ratio. Because they are off the grid, battery supplies are dead silent - no noise from the power line of course, and no noise from internal parts. All AC powered PS will have some residual noise and if you have dirty AC power that can show up in the audio as well (this is a big problem for exhibitors at shows). As speaker efficiency goes up (and you need less power to get to a certain volume) the percentage of noise in the signal (which tends to be a fixed value as opposed to the variable audio signal) can get high enough to be audible from your seating position. It usually won't but it can. So we won't know for sure until we try them in our systems. In addition, there is something about the dead silent background of a battery supply that is very appealing - even if the powered alternative is perfectly OK. On the other hand, with the Virtue amps some people have found the powered supply to be a bit more "lively" or "airy". I won't know if this is the way to go in my system (and for my tastes) until I try it. I know that a lot of people have fallen in love with these things using the standard PS so I can't imagine the upgrade supply vs. battery is a major issue in any case.

Bill
« Last Edit: 30 Jun 2010, 12:04 am by CSI »

justplainmike

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #18 on: 30 Jun 2010, 03:38 am »
Thanks Bill :-)  That was great info.  Since I've been reading about the good reports from the 80hz bypass I've been even more excited about the One.2.  I think not having to feed the lower frequencies will really bring out what the Axioms have to offer.  I'll make sure to do a full review.  Thanks again to everyone who's shared their thoughts and advice.  Cheers!!

Mike

justplainmike

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Re: One.2 Questions
« Reply #19 on: 8 Jul 2010, 03:55 pm »
Hi All,

Thanks again for all the great info and advice here on the forums. 

I got my One.2 last night and hooked it up when I got home.  Here's my setup:

Squeezebox 3--->Audio-Gd Headphone Amp/Dac/Pre w/line level output to--->One.2---> Axiom M3 Ti's and Mirage S8 subwoofer.

Setup is in my bedroom which is about 14x16ft w/vaulted ceiling ~8-14ft high (highest part above speakers and lowest part above bed/listening position.

Initial Impressions:
Amp is working fine and I'm getting good sound out right now.  Did a little listening last night and it's definitely an improvement over my previous DTA-100 and Sonic Impact Super T-amps.    I haven't done the 80hz crossover change yet (couldn't find an Allen wrench  :scratch: ).  Will be doing that in the next couple of days.  Debating burning in the amp and doing some initial listening first vs. doing the switch now.

I'll be doing a more in depth review with some pics as I get some more burn in time on the amp and have some time to listen critically, but so far so good!!  Thanks again everyone!

Mike