Fabulous little Class T (tripath) box, <$100! YOWZA!!!

thayerg · « **on:** 17 Feb 2004, 01:13 am »

The Griffin Technologies PowerWave is a 20W/channel amp. It costs $100. It could work fine as a little power amp. But here's the beauty part--it is also a USB interface to a computer, providing both line and mic level inputs and line level and headphone outputs. I'm listening to some iTunes Jazz on my Senn 600s as I write and believe me it sounds much, much, much, muchh better than it has any right to, considering both its price and its size. I could see where a few mods might take it to the next level but OOTB it ain't too shabby.

PS The lowest price I've seen for this bad boy is at e-cost.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #1 on:** 17 Feb 2004, 01:42 am »

Drats! Like most cool stuff, eCost.com doesn't have any in stock right now. If you check out their site frequently you'll see that problem constantly!

But I've bought a lotta stuff there, and they ship free on orders over $25 and have really fast turnaround time on stuff that's in stock.

That looks like just the ticket for me- I've got a pair of really nice JBL HLS-610 bookshelf speakers I'd like to hook up to my PC (and ditch the far-from-audiophile-approved HP provided crappola jobbies I'm using now.

). 20 digital watts oughta be plenty for that.

Thump553 · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 Feb 2004, 08:09 pm »

This thing really works as a good headphone amp for the Senn 600's? My main headphone amp is currently dead, this sounds pretty appealing.

J&R has this for about $10 more than Ecost, and is a much better retailer to deal with. Try handling a defective merchandise issue with Ecost sometime-its a nightmare.

EDIT: J&R's site indicates this is a 15W/channel amp, not 20. Any idea which is correct?

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Feb 2004, 08:44 pm »

That's strange, Thump553- I've never had any problems with returns to eCost.

My (12-13) experiences with them have been positive, even the returns. I guess, as they say, "YMMV."

I've only purchased from JandR once, but it was positive, too.

I think Griffin's own website claims just the 15 watt rating. Not that it'd be a huge deal for listening at the PC.

Dmason · « **Reply #4 on:** 18 Feb 2004, 12:40 am »

Here we go again....I can see it now, Bolder mod for the Powerwave, just $300....I love the look of that and have just ordered one myself.

Nice sound those Tripath chips, huh? If you get hooked, Blaupunkt has them for your car too, and Crutchfield is practically giving them away. Has anyone had that little thing apart, and could anyone speculate what it would take to re-wire it for a quality external power supply and non-USB signal input? This thing done right would make a spectacular little limpet amp for high efficiency speakers, way short speaker cables, or, ....inserted into a speaker cabinet, mounted directly to the crossover board between the crossover circuits and the speakers, or a killer headphone rig with the Nixon DACkit, ...but I digress.

More info please. More opinions please. 2004 is going to suck for audiophools

thayerg · « **Reply #5 on:** 18 Feb 2004, 03:23 am »

After more time I can say this little device might just represent an 'inflection point' as they say. I hooked it up to my Norh 3.0s and ended up spending all of last night listening to music at my laptop. I wrote a little positive review on the Norh circle but it gets even better--I decided to experiment with flipping the wires to the Norh. It turns out that I had liked the sound well enough with speakers out of frickin' phase!. With the speakers in phase the 'congested' sound of the Norhs pretty much vanished at reasonable listening levels and the subtle high-frequency sounds I use to eval all equipment were a lot more transparent. Still not up to my big system's level of nuance but very creditable given the price of the whole rig. Not to mention the immersive quality of any respectable nearfield system. Mass market computer speakers rely entirely on that effect, but let me tell you when you have a much more resolving system it can be simply riveting.

On Thursday I'm going to try to get a handle on the true output power at my friend's store. (www.echohifi.com and yes that's a not so subtle plug. Kurt is a great guy.) The site sez 15 but my manual sez 20. Franklly I don't care either way--this little amp and the Norhs are synergistic and my laptop is now a very compelling place to listen to music. Beyond that it's all bookkeeping. From reading the specs at tripath's site it looks like they declare max output power based on a stiff distortion figure you don't want to go anywhere near. But, as they say, if the first watt sucks why bother? I'd say the PowerWave's first watt doesn't suck at all.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #6 on:** 18 Feb 2004, 03:39 am »

I'd think for nearfield listening even 15 Watts should suffice for almost any speaker. I want one- just deciding whether to try to save $10 by waiting for eCost to get them in (could be awhile) or buy from JandR. And I'll have to move stuff around to fit some speakers near the PC...

JLM · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Feb 2004, 11:06 pm »

15 vs 20 wpc is less than 2 dB (not much more than noticable).

These might make for a great application for audio PCs (without those silly DACs) and higher efficiency speakers.

Note that Omega speakers are 93 - 96 dB/w/m, meaning that with this amp in a 2,000 cu. ft. room you could reach 105 to 109 dB.9 (plenty loud).

scooby_scrappy · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Feb 2004, 01:26 am »

I was wondering whether the Powerwave can be used as a separate amp without going through a pc. I am thinking about connecting my ava t7 to the powerwave and using the break cable to my vandy 1c.

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 12:43 am »

Just had one delivered. I posted comments here in the Square Circle:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=8293&start=20

and in the Omega forum:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=8713

On a $ for quality basis this is truly amazing!

thayerg · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 02:29 am »

I'm delighted others are confirming my enthusiasm!

Now, which brave soul will crack the case and tell us how to get some decent cables connected? I'm thinking of soldering cable right to the powerwave and possibly right to the norh speaker's lugs. Why not at these prices? Although I'm told that the norh speaker internals are decent.

What is an ASIO driver and why might I want one? I liked that the powerwave needed no driver at all. I'm using iTunes.

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 03:48 am »

I am not an expert on this topic, but here's what I know.

There is a known (but unfixed) bug in Windows XP's "Kmixer" program. This is the code that translates the digital bitstream coming from your player app (iTunes in your case) to the format required for output to the sound device (internal card or USB device in this case). I theory it should pick the appropriate sample rate to avoid having to resample the signal - in practice it apparently is resampling, at least in some cases, resulting in a loss of information. It also may be doing other bad things like adding noise and/or changing the frequency response - not sure about that. Check avs-forum's HTPC section for lot's of heated debate over whether people think they can hear the problem. There definitely is a problem though.

Yes folks, Microsoft screwed up.

Enter ASIO (Audio Stream Input Output). This is an alternative output format that Apple uses, invented by Steinberg for pro use, that requires A) a player program that outputs ASIO (J River does, WinAmp has a plug-in, not sure about iTunes under Windows), and B) a sound device with an appropriate driver. I already use J River Media Center, and got an ASIO USB driver that supports the Powerwave from www.usb-audio.com. It also allows you to upconvert to 24-bit audio and higher sampling rates, although the Powerwave doesn't support higher sampling rates (I tried).

The other approach to circumvent the problem is "kernal streaming". I don't know how to do that with a USB device - anyone else?

I thought the soundstage depth improved noticeably with the ASIO driver, but I hardly did a controlled experiment. Folks with a lot of experience with HTPC's recommend bypassing Kmixer for critical applications though and that's good enough for me.

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 03:51 pm »

I read in the Denon AVR770SD thread in this forum that the Tripath chip only accepts an analogue input signal. Is that true? That would mean that the Powerwave has to do a D/A step to convert the USB signal to analogue, which then feeds the Tripath?

If this is true, I have got to try using the RCA inputs - that should eliminate the Powerwaves D/A which is unlikely to be as good as my RAM CD player or my NAD 752. I hope they didn't do something dumb like putting a cheesy capacitor in the analgue input circuit path.

Hot damn this keeps getting better.

Mathew_M · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 04:27 pm »

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=getItemDetail&Q=&sku=221809&is=REG&si=feat#goto_itemInfo

This is the USB brother to the same dac that the DAM actually concluded beat the MENSA DiO. Unfortunately it doesn't have digital in or out but if you were to use it solely for your Mac or PC then it wouldn't be a problem. Regardless its an excellent price.

thayerg · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 06:20 pm »

Speaking as one who has bought and gotten rid of many a DAC over the years I don't think you'll find much to fault with the Pwave's DAC. In fact that is one of the most impressive things about it, or at least I felt it was when I listened to the Pwave through its analog outputs into my Meridian/tube/B&W system using long and crap interconnects. Actually I've kind of concluded that the DAC wars are basically over--even a cheap dvd player has better sounding DACs than most high end separates of four years ago.

I think that anyone looking to get the most from the Pwave is better off finding the right speakers for it to feed than bypassing its DAC. I'm guessing that with its low power and considering the varying results people are reporting with other digital amp designs amp/speaker synergy is the key variable here. Or it could be a lot of fun to use multiple Pwaves in a biamp configuration. I could feature a line array with Pwave power.

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #15 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 07:30 pm »

If I can get good sound through the RCA inputs, this thing starts to look like a contender for a hybrid music and HT system, which is where my tube amp is now. I can use my NAD 752 receiver's preamp outputs to feed a Pwave (or a similar amp with more power) for movies, and a computer USB-based system for music.

Hmmm.

Sounds like I have a project for the weekend.

The tube amp still sounds better but I have only a few hours on the Pwave.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 02:25 am »

I may have to eventually crack the case and replace the cheesy micro-plug speaker jack. It well and truly sucks!

But I'm already loving this little critter, now that I've got it working. I'm not sure how well it would work powering your Big Boy Rig; 10-15 Watts/per ain't a lot of power. I've considered getting another one and trying biamping my bedroom Monitor Audio Bronze 3's just for kix.

As I listen to it I'm just floored by the bass this little sucker puts out. I honestly didn't think the JBLs were capable of this type of bass, and that opinion was formed back when I had them hooked up to a 100 WPC receiver.

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 03:31 pm »

Here is a link to my latest comments using the RCA inputs with Omega TS-1's. I'm really not trying to sound like a commercial for Griffin (or Omega for that matter), but this is a very synergystic amp/speaker combo for cheap

.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=8713&start=10

thayerg · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 08:15 pm »

Re: digitial USB vs. analog input gain. I wonder whether the ASIO driver has something to do with it? Or is there a gain control buried deep in some app or driver menu currently set to 50%?.

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 08:56 pm »

I looked around in the Sound Device menu as well as within Media Center. Even with everything maxed out I wasn't getting the gain, and more importantly the sense of drive and soundstage, that I'm getting now driving it with a proper preamp section. I am sticking with that approach for now.