GR N3 and Virtue?

Rclark · « **on:** 12 Jun 2010, 10:40 pm »

Would this be a good combo? I would like the let the TL run its course down to 40 hz to the subs but I notice use of the 80hz jumper is recommended with these amps? Would render the transmission line somewhat useless, no?

Understand that these amps will provide great clarity, etc, but what about punch and power? I'm going to be honest, the only time you'd catch me dead with a Norah Jones CD or the like would be if someone placed it upon my corpse as a joke.

I listen to rock and metal and the amp has to provide ample speed and power to deal with very very very fast kickdrums and powerfully amplified bass guitars.

Which amp would be a good combo, perhaps even the One.2 would suffice?

PSB Guy · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Jun 2010, 11:21 pm »

Power-wise, all the Virtue amps have the same rating, they all max out at around 87 wpc into 4 ohms, or about 44 wpc into 8 ohms. You get the maximum power rating by using batteries or a linear power supply. As you go up from the One.2 to the Two.2 to the Sensations, the amps get a bigger bulk reserve cap (22,000uF for One.2, 27,000uF for Two.2, 33,000uF for Sensation), which helps for bass output. I'm partial to heavier music myself, and trust me, these amps have what it takes to deliver the goods. I've said it before and I'll say it again here, you won't be sorry using the best sub you can get, even with a speaker as good as the N3, because these puppies are not bass shy in any way

. As for the jumper, in your case I would just leave it as it is and like you said let the TL in the N3 run its course to your sub. If you had a smaller main speaker, sure, change the jumper and see if you like the results.

Rclark · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Jun 2010, 11:33 pm »

hmm. Awesome! Well that's great news. This is going to be my first hifi and I'm pretty excited. I'll be purchasing the N3 kit with all the bells and whistles and I was going to just go with a Harmon Kardon 3940 receiver to use as an amp... But what the heck, why not take an extra month's time and get a nice amp too. I kinda want to buy once and be done with it all.

So I'm interested in the battery pack powered amp, I was just concerned about punch. Looks like I need not worry.

Now, I'm not going to be familiar with the numbers you gave me there but I do have a vague understanding that the higher cap will give me more punch, but just how adequate would just a One.2 be for my situation? Or should I just go ahead with a Two.2?

I do require that bit of oomph, yes, but my listening levels will rarely exceed 100dB. Room size approx 12*14. Subs (If it matters) will be a pair of GR 12" paper servo subs from the Rythmik kit. I'm also doing room treatments, all DIY.

Thanks for your reply

Rclark · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 12:32 am »

I'm also at a loss as far as the power supply options. Which is the best? The $139 battery pack unit or the ... $250 JT.. whatever that thing is? Oh and there's also a GR battery pack? Now I'm completely lost.

PSB Guy · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 01:35 am »

Quote from: Rclark on 13 Jun 2010, 12:32 am

I'm also at a loss as far as the power supply options. Which is the best? The $139 battery pack unit or the ... $250 JT.. whatever that thing is? Oh and there's also a GR battery pack? Now I'm completely lost.

The $249 JT is a high current linear supply capable of delivering 10A of current on demand, much more than the 4.3A the best Virtue switching supply can deliver. The Virtue amps LOVE the higher current, they thrive on it, it gives them room to breathe. When you switch to a high current supply, you can literally hear the amp open up, it's amazing. With batteries, you get all the benefits of higher current, plus apparently the noise floor drops to nothing. I say "apparently" because I'm using the JT supply with my M901 because I've got a very nosy cat who would electrocute herself on a battery supply, as least that's what I'm afraid of

. If you're asking what I would do, if you don't need the two extra inputs, go with the One.2 and either the JT supply or batteries, YMMV. As for the difference between the battery supplies, I know the one from Red Wine Audio is much more elegant and plug and play (hence the price), but someone more knowledgable than me will have to help you there.

Light-Echo · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 03:05 am »

I'll be using the M-901 on steroids (24v battery) to run my N3's. Unfortunately the speakers are in transit after building them. I'll be very interested in comparing listening impressions!

I have a fairly small listening room, 12 x 14. It remains to be seen whether I'll go with a sub.

Regards
Dave

Rclark · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 04:45 am »

Hey PSP guy. So what I took from that was: the JT supply is NOT a battery supply, but provides tons of power, and the battery supplies don't provide nearly the power, but have much more SQ, is that correct?

I'm a bit nervous now because I just read a thread that says the amp's SQ increases tremendously when you use the 80hz jumper. I'm hoping to get the max extension from the transmission line but if the SQ is going to suffer, then I'll just use the jumper I guess, but then that's a waste of a nice tl.

Hey Light-Echo, you're going to be giving impressions way way before I do, so I'm gonna keep tabs! Nice.

If anyone else can address my questions, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Light-Echo · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 05:18 am »

What ever the demand, as long as you have the juice, batteries provide more and better power. Period.

Rclark · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 05:32 am »

Then why is the JT supply more expensive?

virtue · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 05:38 am »

I'll just put the subwoofer question to rest with the N3. You flat out don't need one.

We were playing Sensation with the Carnegie Acoustics prototype at LSAF and you would have sworn there was a sub in the room. The N3 has slightly higher sensitivity than those but have a very similar design philosophy (killer transmission line which doubles the effective cone size). I expect that you'll find bass production jaw-dropping.

With regard to running full-range or not, it really depends on the speaker. If you're using small speakers or speakers that don't generate bass efficiently, relieving them of low-bass is very helpful for overall output. The same cannot be said about big speakers that generate low-frequencies efficiently, especially those with sensitive woofer arrays. Run-em full-out and love 'em.

About the JT... it's more expensive because it has an expensive metal case around it and JT must build it. As you know in hifi, just because it's more expensive, doesn't mean it's better!

Don't get me wrong ... the JT is loved! But if I were choosing supplies myself, I'd choose the 30/130w (finished, convenient, powerful) or Dodd batteries (dead quiet background, explosive current). Our 2 cell Dodd pack replaces the GR research kit. You don't need 4 cells and ours is completely finished. In fact, they are both Gary Dodd units anyway.

If you really want both high current and a finished case, choose between RWA Black Lightning (batteries + case) or the JT (transformer + case).

The bargain buy is the Dodd battery combo which does not require assembly and is quite safe, nicely but looks slightly unfinished. A cat could nibble the wires and heat-shrink but nobody is LIKELY to be electrocuted otherwise. The terminals and wires are pretty well covered.

Rclark · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 05:48 am »

Hello!

Would you possibly give me a more thorough breakdown of my concerns? I mean, I love the amps, and I totally get the idea of a battery sourced amplifier, but I've never listened to any of this stuff. Could you possibly go over what I've written and be a bit more thorough?

I'm 100% on the N3 part. Now I just need to be for sure on the amps. I will be running subs but just for the low end, just to have a complete hifi. I'm going to build room treatments and the whole nine. They won't get cranked loud, but they'll be there.

Is it true about the amp sounding much much nicer when below 80hz is cut out?

Rclark · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 05:55 am »

oh, you edited, I see. Well, ok, so in addition to the 80 hz question in regards to an N3 and maximizing fidelity, I guess my other main question is: which is the best battery supply out of all those?

The Black Lightning? See if I can find that..

brother love · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 11:54 am »

Rclark,

How big is your room, how far away is your listening position, how loud do you listen to music? The Virtue amps w/ 30v 130w power supply or 28.8v 5 amp (144w) batteries generate 88 w/ ch @ 8 ohms (smaller power supplies are half that for 8 ohms). Danny has N3 power range 8- 100 watts. So you're more than fine.

The speaker efficiency of the N3's is excellent: 90.5 dB (1 watt @ 1 meter) & they dig down to 40 Hz @ -3 dB (a pr. would be equivalent to (2) 8" subs). High eff. speakers typically hiss at moderate/ high volume levels (I have some 90dB Paradigm surrounds that do this). Batteries would benefit you greatly providing a quiet background.

I have ELT525 towers w/ 86 dB eff. w/ 48 Hz -3dB & am currently auditioning the One. 2 w/ an 30v 80 w power supply (results in 44 watt/ ch @ 8 ohms I believe). I'm running my mains full range without changing 80 Hz jumper on One.2 . The bass is VERY impressive without my Rythmik F12G servo sub.

My room is 18' x 12' x 8' & I listen from 7' away.

I posted this in Cheap & Cheerful Hi Fi Virtue Audio tour impression thread:

"I pulled out the Rat Shack SPL meter to check volumes. One. 2 stepped attenuator clicks look to be 2 dB increments. I pushed towers w/o sub to 95 dB & detected no clipping or strain. Most of my listening was in the 85 dB peak range. ELT525 towers 86 dB efficiency was no problem for the One.2. I typically had the One. 2 volume between 10- 12 o'clock. Bass was so good that I didn't use the sub for most of the session (towers good down to 48 Hz -3dB)."

So if you don't listen to music at ear bleeding levels in a huge room, the Virtue amps would be a fantastic combo w/ the GR Research N3. BTW, I have some used N2x's being shipped to me & will audition next week w/ & w/o sub (they are rated at 85 dB eff. & 65 Hz -3 dB).

neutralos · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 12:40 pm »

Of course it´s a point of view but let me throw in mine:

I still not give much attention for a sub out in an amp. I heard and read mostly that a sub is everytime a foreigne substance which is hard to integrate in a present speaker system.

Wasn´t there out a calculation about lower frequencies and the needed room size to avoid fixed waves in room acoustics ? I am not sure but optimum room size for 20 Hz is minimum 6 squaremeters.
This is (at least for european room standards) above the average value.

With my TWO I never felt the need of a sub and my Revels are 6 ohms nominal impedance. It is really hard to believe how much punch, clarity and control you experience out from the TWO supplied with 27 Volts (and minimum 7 amperes).
Are these TWOs really so good or didn´t I listen so long with a class A/B ? I cannot imagine that a 400 $ class A/B would have any chance in pure musicality disciplines (O.K. you have more buttons and inputs to play

).

PSB Guy · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Jun 2010, 02:48 pm »

Quote from: Rclark on 13 Jun 2010, 05:55 am

oh, you edited, I see. Well, ok, so in addition to the 80 hz question in regards to an N3 and maximizing fidelity, I guess my other main question is: which is the best battery supply out of all those? The Black Lightning? See if I can find that..

Here's were you'll find the Black Lightning on the Virtue site:
http://store.virtueaudio.com/category-s/72.htm
As opposed to the $139 battery supply, the BL is obviously much more finished looking and it can be made with two outputs to power two amps. It also has a built-in soft-start circuit, which makes it safe to use with the older model Virtue amps (original One and Two).

Rclark · « **Reply #15 on:** 14 Jun 2010, 03:35 am »

Hey Brother Love, hit the 80hz jumper and tell me what you think then. Do it without and with your sub. You have the exact setup I will have and that info will be priceless. I'm very interested in understanding the difference in quality.

As far as which battery kit I would buy, I would get the unfinished version without a case because, to me, it just looks way way cooler. And none of my friends own anything hifi (as I don't), and to see this tiny little orange amp powered by a stack of batteries, there's a coolness factor there. Maybe I'll paint my N3's to match?

By the way, not one person has suggested one amp over the other. I guess the One.2 is probably fine.

Rclark · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 Jun 2010, 04:15 am »

The reason it's so imperative that I know about the level of increase in SQ with the 80hz jumper is it might define which version of the N3 I get. If it is some enormous difference then I might just build the N3 as a sealed kit and have the subs cover 80hz and below. But I need to know. Thanks!

eclein · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 Jun 2010, 10:56 am »

I just recently got a TWO.2, its driving JBL 4312A's-no sub...the sound is amazing!!! Mine has the Auricaps and 30/130 Power supply, I just got it Friday and I must say TWO.2 is the bomb!!...I was using a sub at first with bookshelf L20T's but since the unit has started to unfold/breakin, I'm driving large 3-way JBL's with a 12" and have taken the sub out...LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!

When using the sub, I didn't play with any jumpers-was used as shipped and sounded fine..this probably didn't help you much but just some info.

Rclark · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Jun 2010, 09:40 pm »

Can the Dobb Tube buffer upgrade be applied to the ONE or TWO?

Can the preamp in the Sensation be disabled? Because I'll be using an Emotiva UMC-1 as my preamp.

virtue · « **Reply #19 on:** 14 Jun 2010, 09:44 pm »

You can buy a separate Dodd buffer from Gary for use with the ONE/TWO. Quite pricey.

I don't think that the pre-amp op-amps are in the stereo circuit per se; they drive the pre-outs only. So if you don't use the pre-outs, don't worry about any extra ICs in your signal path.

You may choose not to use a pre-amp if you choose Sensation. Either way, I forsee good results.