[mca]

OK guys, I’m at the end of my audio rope here. My current system is just not sounding as I’d hoped. I’ve been trying to assemble a small system that has a nice relaxed, smooth warm sound. It has not ended up that way and instead sounds too thin and bright.
I’ve been listening to a lot of female vocalists along the lines of Holly Cole, Norah Jones, Diana Krall and Alison Krause. Instruments like piano, harmonica, certain guitar and vocal notes sound etched and tend to ring in my ears. The equipment I’ve ended up with is as follows:

Dodd 50wpc integrated amp using stock JJ Tesla and Philips tubes
Ah Tjoeb 4000 CD player w/Siemans 7308 tubes
Usher CP-730 speakers
Harmonic Technology Pro-11 speaker wire
Harmonic Technology Truth-Link interconnects
Zu Cable Bok power cord on amp

I’m past the point of wanting to buy and sell any more equipment. I figure I should try some lower cost alternatives like changing cables, tubes or adding power conditioning or Bybee’s to try and get the desired sound that I’m after. Any suggestions?

[Hantra]

Change the Philips tubes.  I had some Philips JAN tubes in my Audio Note, and I thought they were a little etched sounding, and just overall not very impressive.  

Also, the only system I have ever heard a Tjoeb in was nice, but almost unbearably bright at times.  I thought it was the Meadowlarks, but now that you post this, I'm not so sure.  You could try a nice DAC like the Nixon TubeDAC.  It's very relaxing, and has a nice flow.

Good luck man.  I know it sucks having a system you can't enjoy.

B

[srclose]

OK, I'll take a stab at this.  Unfortunately, I have no direct experience with any of the equipment you list.  However, I have heard Dodd equipment - monoblocks - and given Gary's voicing of those I cannot imagine a harsh sound from his designs operating as intended.  That leaves digital source, speaker, or the synergy of cables.  Of those three, digital source seems like the prime potential culprit for harshness.  Maybe demo some alternative CD source.

[srclose]

You might check to see if ModWright offers any mods for the 4000.

[Carlman]

It could also be the room.  How is it treated and what size is it?

I just finished a huge revamp/rethink of how to treat a room.  Brightness and harsh sounds are simply gone.  The sound is completely natural and smooth.  I enjoy my system immensely.  However, different speakers I tried interacted differently in that room regardless of treatments.  Some speakers like a wide room like the Von Schweikert VR1's.  The Green Mountains would sound better if my room was wider but it's not.  

The size of the room and the interaction of the speaker is where the thin-ness is probably coming from.  When you say thin, I think non-holographic soundstage... not sure if that's what you mean.  However, thin sounding as in pinched, lack of bass, etc., could be a phase issue, toe-in, or possibly the digital source.

Aren't the Usher's supposed to be a somewhat forward and lively set of speakers?  I haven't heard them, just talked to a guy about them today, though.  I used to love that description of speakers until I moved into a house with hardwoods and not much furniture.  Lively turned into fatiguing.  I had to really re-think my speakers.

My guess is it's a combination of A, small setup problem, B, speaker personality, C, possibly harsh tubes, and D, possibly a digital source issue.  I really think it's A and/or B, though.  I think C and D will be more of a tweak than a transformation.

This is all my opinion but, I just recently went through all this and I genuinely want you to get to the state of nirvana like what I have.  Everything now is just a tweak.

-C

[warnerwh]

Carlman has hit a very important part that is often overlooked and is extemely important, just like speakers.  At least try some treatment behind your system. Once you try improving acoustics you'll want more and the results are amazing.

[Danny Richie]

I think I may have actually heard your amp before it was shipped to you and driving several of our speakers.

It is anything but bright or thin.

Midrange was really lush, warm, smooth, and really seductive with that type of music.

I have never been real big on that CD player but wouldn't think of it as bright or thin, it does have a tube output, after all.

I have also heard a lot of the Usher speakers. They are really nice sounding speakers and once again hit the top of my short list at CES last month. Their whole line sounds good, and very smooth.

To me the number one most important part of the system is the speakers.

Second is the room.

Third is the room.

Fourth is the room.

The room, the room, the room....  then everything else.

I don't care how good everything else in the system is or how much it cost. If you spent zero dollars or zero efforts on room acoustics the whole system is worth zero.

So ah, I would also recommend some attention to the room.  

[TheChairGuy]

MCA,

You didn't mention it, but do you have any line conditioning there?  There are a lot of opinions of the best model, type and form of conditioning, but most all work to some degree.  Yeah, even the ubiquitous Monster Cable stuff that goes for $100 and not much more.  It'll remove powerline grunge that may be mucking up your enjoyment of things.

Costco Inc. (Kirkland, WA) may be sucking up all the good electricity in town!

Hey, try this too...if you are connecting your Ushers with bananas, try bare wire connecting it (to speaks and amp) if you can.  Sometimes a bit o' brass where it shouldn't can lean things to the point of bitter dissapointment.

Don't be that bummed, your system looks like you've spent a lot of time selecting and you just need a couple tweeks to get you enjoying things.

[bubba966]

Costco moved to Issaquah, WA a few years back. So there's no corporate HQ sucking up tons of juice anymore. But I 'spose they do still have 2 warehouses in Kirkland...

I can't say how the power is in Kirkland as I'm on the other side of the lake. But here at my power conditioning isn't a big deal. Sure, I've got a little bit of conditioning. It helps, but not a whole lot. It's more of a finishing type of tweak at my place rather than a necessary system component.

Having just installed a bunch of 8th Nerve response controllers, I'd say try treating the room first. I didn't think it'd help out a whole lot in my setup as I don't have windows, slap echo, large bare walls, etc. that usually require one to treat the room. But it did make a significant improvement in my setup. And I wish I'd done it sooner.

[Dan Banquer]

First and foremost I am really glad to see that folks here in this forum are realizing the importance of acoustic room treatment. Live End/Dead End rules as far as I am concerned. For people who may not be aware of where to get acoustic foam at a reasonable price let me post these two links.
  www.foambymail.com
  www.partsexpress.com
Remember; the thicker the foam the lower in frequency it absorbs.
               d.b.

[warnerwh]

Here's another good place with good pricing to buy foam: http://www.foamorder.com/products.cgi?cart=b0W0t0n29193142221n6A2c1Z&item=acoustic

You want the thickest stuff here.  You can have them cut it any way you like and the cuts are accurate to about an eighth inch. They don't advertise it but it appears to be fire proof. I tried holding a lighter to some and it would not burn, only melt.  I will also add that the LEDE is an excellent upgrade.  For a few hundred dollars your system will be transformed.  This will make you wonder why you spent hundreds on wire first, guaranteed.

[vpolineni]

where is a good place to hang the foam?  I noticed in ekovalksy's picture gallery he has a large piece of foam on the wall behind his speakers in the center.. i went to the website warnerwh recommended and the prices aren't bad at all-5 ft x 4t piece of 3 inch thick foam is 78 bucks!

[mca]

Thanks for all your replies. I look forward to trying to get this thing sorted out so I can get back to enjoying my music!

Hantra, What tubes did you replace the Philips with? I also heard a pair of Meadowlark Kestrel 2’s driven by Conrad Johnson tube gear and it sounded way to bright to my ears.

Carlman, The system is setup in my living room that measures 15-4” D x 14-10” W x 7-7” H.  The speakers are setup against the shorter wall and are about 8’ apart. Due to limited space, they are only pulled out about 18” from the wall. The room has no treatments but is carpeted and has two cloth couches. One is in the listening position and the other along the right side wall. The left wall has a fireplace with bay windows on each side. The windows are covered with heavy accordion blinds. The back of the room is open on both sides. The front door entrance is on one side and the opening to the dining room and hallway on the other. Being the main room in the house, there is not too much I can do to it treatment wise without it sticking out like a sore thumb.
I bought the Usher speakers unheard on a partial trade with Bill at Response Audio. I talked to him quite a bit about them and what I was looking for in a pair of speakers. He assured me the Ushers had a sound that I was after. Given his reputation, I have no reason to doubt him.

TheChairGuy, I don’t use any line conditioning and have the equipment plugged straight into the wall. Funny you mention Costco. Yeah, corp. moved up to Issaquah, but I live two blocks away from the store in Kirkland. I at least know my power is pretty good as my entire home theater system (converted garage) is plugged into an HTS5100 and the voltage readout always stays between 119-120v.

[Hantra]

Hantra, What tubes did you replace the Philips with?

I found a deal on some NOS TungSol's.  They are just a much better tube in every respect.  They sound a lot more full, and better at the frequency extremes. . .

[Jim W.]

I auditioned the Usher AC-10s and thought they were thin, bright, forward - whatever you want to call it.  Not warm at all and I fatigued quickly.  A shame for such an expensive pair of speakers.  The room was far from ideal as well - so, maybe it was the room's fault   .

[audioengr]

MCA - what exactly is wrong with your sound?  Could be you are expecting too much from so many tubes....

If you are ever down in Oregon, please stop in at BBR (Central Oregon).  I'm always happy to demo some music.

[mca]

I just want a system that I can relax to and enjoy. One that can make it through an entire CD without me having to shut it off due to listener fatigue. That's not too much to ask, is it?

[mca]

After playing with my system all weekend, I have decided to sell. Everything listed in my first post will go up for sale, so PM me if your interested. On a whim, I hooked up my little Sharp SD-SG11 to the Ushers out in the living room. It actually sounded pretty good. The trick for me was using the loundess button, which gave my system bass and warmth that was completely lacking before. The Ushers have a fairly low sensitivity, so volume had to be kept pretty low. I figure I will look for a low cost set of floorstanders with a higher sensitivity and leave the system at that.
I still have my home theater/multi-channel setup in a dedicated room that I enjoy quite a bit. I figure I could put the money from what I sell towards improving that system. The Modwright mod for my DVD2900 is looking pretty good as is more room treatment, since I can get away with it in there