[johnbrukecristy]

Hi........,




fine wine

[Napalm]

The re-pressings of this material today is horrible. The new album pressings aren't much better.They have lost the art of making vinyl, the record plant equipment is too old or they master it from digital and mess things up.

I'd say that they lost the art of recording sound. Whatever we get these days is well under the capabilities of either vinyl or CD (or any other media newer than Edison's cylinder). I guess they're mastering at 4bits/8kHz or something to that effect.

Nap. 

P.S. Seriously. Since they're running sound through 3 compressors and a limiter, does the result need 16bits of dynamic range? OK, 4 bits was an exaggeration, I guess 8 is the figure.

[jsaliga]

The best reason to consider a vinyl setup is because there is music on vinyl that you really want that is not readily available on CD.  Too many people come at it looking only for better sound.  While I have a lot of records that sound much better than their CD counterparts, it isn't the format that makes these records sound better...it's the mastering.  But records, just like CDs, can be poorly mastered too, and I have a lot of CDs that sound better than records.

I am in it for the music.  Most of the music on vinyl that interests me is classical music recordings from the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, jazz from the 1940s, 50s, and 60s, and rock from the 1960s, 70s, and 80s.  These are all analogue sourced recordings.  I also have an open reel tape deck and about 350 tapes.  It makes no sense to me to take a analogue recording and sacrifice a great deal of musical fidelity by no-noising it to death.  In these cases you can take a CD of the recording and listen to it along side a 1/4" tape at 7.5ips, and the superiority of the tape becomes obvious very quickly.  But again, not because tape is a better format, but because the people who create CDs can't resist monkeying around with the sound in order to make it "better."  I know there are people who prefer this antiseptic approach to production, but I'm not one of them.

For music that was originally recorded digitially I tend to favor CD, DVD-A, and SACD.  Unfortunately the loudness war has all but ruined redbook CD.  When it first got started it was mostly pop and rock that was affected....but now I am starting to see jazz releases on CD that are heavily compressed and mastered hot.  What a shame.

Lastly, the difficultly of setting up a turntable is often way overblown on forums such as this.  Most of us are able to ignore the frequent dispatches from the frontiers of audio extremism and simply enjoy the music.  I set my cartridge VTA up using a heavy 140g record as a reference.  Once the alignment is done properly there is no need to constantly diddle with it.  I check my VTF every few months with a gague that takes a few moments.  Someone can argue that my VTA is slightly off when I play 200g records or standard vinyl pressings, which technically is true.  But all of my records sound just fine to me and at the end of the day that is all that matters. 

--Jerome

[Ryanz]

Wow! Thanks for the feedback guys! I have triple the knowledge thanks to you. And just so you know, I would have posted this question in the vinyl circle, but I wanted feedback from pro-vinyl and anti-vinyl. I'll let you know the results of the demo. 

[Napalm]

Unfortunately the loudness war has all but ruined redbook CD.  When it first got started it was mostly pop and rock that was affected....but now I am starting to see jazz releases on CD that are heavily compressed and mastered hot.  What a shame.

What these bozos don't realize is that with each iteration in their "progress", they are asymptotically approaching the point where the signal on the CD will be recorded as a 44.1kHz DSD waveform, and all that they will be using would be the x0000 and xFFFF values.

I've already patented "method and apparatus for maximizing perceptual loudness on CD recordings by using DSD encoding over PCM" so when they'll get there by chaining enough compressors, I'll sue for patent infringement and look for sales injunction.

Nap. 

[vegasdave]

The biggest problem is finding good pressings of vinyl. You want the Original Pressing or the 2nd pressing. Which means finding pristine old vinyl if you want great sound. No easy task.

Try finding a mint OP of Led Zepp 1 or 2. The re-pressings of this material today is horrible. The new album pressings aren't much better.They have lost the art of making vinyl, the record plant equipment is too old or they master it from digital and mess things up. Whatever the reason they don't sound like the OPs. I'm old enough to remember.    I've bought the "audiophile" 180g remakes of some of the old classics and they are all flat and lifeless. Ex. Zep's Mothership gets 'raved' about but is not even close to the OP. A waste of $60. Got $20 for it.

Good luck finding OPs that are worth a listen.  I only have about 25.  My Clearaudio TT worth $3000 sure looks good tho!

Anyway with the new Bryston BCD-1 we finally have digital that can sound better than vinyl ( the good pressings). Only took 30 years of CDs to do it.

You have a Clearaudio tt? Which model?

[Ryanz]

Just got back from the dealer, having auditioned numerous turntables, and I have to say I can't tell the difference between a properly recorded CD and vinyl. Just in case anyone cares........

[Napalm]

Just got back from the dealer, having auditioned numerous turntables, and I have to say I can't tell the difference between a properly recorded CD and vinyl. Just in case anyone cares........

At which point you can wholeheartedly go the most convenient way which is CD.....

Nap. 

[jsaliga]

You seem to be trying awfully hard to discourage someone from considering a vinyl rig.  Why the intense personal interest?

--Jerome

[Elizabeth]

Sorry, but if you 'auditioned numerous turntables" in less than ten hours, you didn't really "AUDITION" ANY turntables, you just looked at them with a LP playing.   
To be able to actually 'listen' you have to be relaxed. WHO can be relaxed with a salesperson hovering over you, or the turntable, or he is talking at you a mile a minute filling your head with stuff you do not know (and don't need in an audition)
You have to GO back,  after making an appointment, and making it clear you want to spend SEVERAL HOURS listening to (pick three). Then, when you get there, listen to WHOLE LP sides. DO NOT LET DUDE TALK! Just listen. Ignore dude, listen. If Dude is jumping around, ask him to get lost. (seriously).
BUY a LP of music YOU LOVE. Actually have at least three different LPs of music YOU know AND love and bring them with you!  Listen to all three on one TT at a time. Relax. Listen to all three LPs after a ten minute pause on the second TT. Then repeat on third. Use the same electronics if possible. AND, if you want to compare to CDs, then bring your same CDs, and do the same thing!. no jumping around, changing tracks. Just listen to the whole Cd, then perhaps listen to the same whole LP. AND, again, shoo't' the saleman. Chase him away if he (and HE WILL) starts talking.
If the store is TOO BUSY for this, make an appointment when they are not open, or before they normally open. tell them you want 3 hours to listen.
When I go to my local favorite dealer, first thing I turn it down. I NEVER have been in a store where the music is NOT turned up too loud.
You want listen, not feel the music.
Relax. If the dude is pushing TELL HIM to back off, politely. Relax. The KEY to being able to hear is to not be TRYING to hear a difference. Just enjoy the music. Notice which one you enjoyed the music the most. NOT trying to think was this one more bass, or that one better midrange NO! just how it made you feel about the music overall.
THEN, if you still don't find anything in LP playback, you tried it out, and made a realistic decision.
Good Luck

[Laundrew]

Just got back from the dealer, having auditioned numerous turntables, and I have to say I can't tell the difference between a properly recorded CD and vinyl. Just in case anyone cares........

When I was auditioning various audio systems, one experience really stands out. I auditioned a system that sounded quite lifeless - to me anyway. The dealer inquired if I wanted to hear some vinyl before I left and I said sure. It was a Michell Turntable with a tube pre-amplifier.

The system actually came to life and I was very impressed - the TT made the difference in the sound quality - I should also mention that the CD player was not an inexpensive unit.

Although I do not own a TT at this time - the  Michell Turntable out-performed the CD player. I would be curious to see how my Esoteric compared to a TT. Bill - if you read this, add your $.02 WRT your X-05 to your TT

Be well…

[Napalm]

You seem to be trying awfully hard to discourage someone from considering a vinyl rig.  Why the intense personal interest?

--Jerome

Nothing personal Jerome, I don't manufacture or sell any kind of audio equipment.

OTOH there is too much BS surrounding TT, especially from unscrupulous vendors. My first advice was "go for an audition", if it didn't convince him, why insist to "go again and again until you find a reason to like them" ?????

Nap.

[Napalm]

The system actually came to life and I was very impressed - the TT made the difference in the sound quality - I should also mention that the CD player was not an inexpensive unit.

Hope it wasnt the BCD-1......

Nap. 

[jsaliga]

I don't manufacture or sell any kind of audio equipment.

I wasn't trying to suggest that you did.  I was just curious.

OTOH there is too much BS surrounding TT, especially from unscrupulous vendors. My first advice was "go for an audition", if it didn't convince him, why insist to "go again and again until you find a reason to like them" ?????

Truth be told there is a lot of misinformation in audio.

To me it all comes down to the music you want to buy and enjoy.  It's not about the best format.  For example, if you are really into 1920s and 30s jazz then a turntable and a collection of 78s might be your thing.  You can get some of that stuff on CD...but a lot of it has been beaten into the dirt with noise filtering.  Then again, if you're a classical music lover RCA has done a real nice job reissuing a lot RCA Living Stereo titles on Hybrid SACD, remastered from the original tapes.  I own about 50 of them and they are priced right at about $10 or so each.  If you like 1950s jazz from labels such as Contemporary, Riverside, and Prestige then OJC has been reissuing a ton of that stuff on CD and it really sounds great because they didn't try stupid Jedi sound tricks.  If you're a fan of 1970s rock then a turntable might make good sense because vinyl from that period is pretty plentiful and affordable. 

I was away from vinyl for about 15 years or so and got back into it because there was some obscure CD of music from the 1960s or 70s I was shopping for and found that it was out of print, but a record could be bought for $5.  Works for me.

The point is...choice is a good thing.

--Jerome

[Laundrew]

Hope it wasnt the BCD-1......

Nap. 

No Nap, it was not a BCD-1. This unit was more than double the price of the BCD-1 and I would say that the BCD-1 was a superior performer than this mystery CD player.

Be well...

[patrickm]

I have a ClearAudio Concept TT on my Bryston / PMC configuration.  It's a great little turnable, sounds wonderful and didn't break the bank.  My kids [and possibly my wife] think I'm an idiot but there's nothing like sitting back, listening to your favourite records while reading the liner notes.  My only beef with the Concept is the lack of a dust cover but I had one made at a local acrylic shop.

[vegasdave]

I have a ClearAudio Concept TT on my Bryston / PMC configuration.  It's a great little turnable, sounds wonderful and didn't break the bank.  My kids [and possibly my wife] think I'm an idiot but there's nothing like sitting back, listening to your favourite records while reading the liner notes.  My only beef with the Concept is the lack of a dust cover but I had one made at a local acrylic shop.

Cool. I really dig Clearaudio. How's the build quality on that one?

[patrickm]

Very good.  Everything is well put together / machined / constructed.  No problems with tracking/antiscating and the connectors are solid.  However, for full disclosure, I must admit that this is my second Concept.  My first one had an issue with the tonearm bearing and the distributor replaced the entire TT.

[bunnyma357]

Just got back from the dealer, having auditioned numerous turntables, and I have to say I can't tell the difference between a properly recorded CD and vinyl. Just in case anyone cares........

This can be one of the big advantages of LP's, they generally are mastered pretty well, as opposed to many CD's that are compressed and distorted in the quest to sound "loud". So, particularly if you like classic rock, the LP's can sound way better than the latest CD versions, and are cheaper as well.

Probably not as big a difference for Jazz & Classical.


Jim C

[vegasdave]

Very good.  Everything is well put together / machined / constructed.  No problems with tracking/antiscating and the connectors are solid.  However, for full disclosure, I must admit that this is my second Concept.  My first one had an issue with the tonearm bearing and the distributor replaced the entire TT.

Cool. They look like they're made well, so thanks for the confirmation.

That's awesome that the distributor did that. Very professional. Sounds like something Bryston would do.