[billmcc]

I have been looking at the Song Towers for the longest time and almost bought forum member davidrs' STs and Song Center. I am kind of kicking myself for not buying them but size (height) played a factor in my fairly shallow room. I am wondering what performance is lost going from the STs to the Song Birds? My use would be about 50/50 music to HT ratio with an Onkyo 886 (HT), Parasound 2100 (2 CH), a Boston Acoustics A7200 (SN A-965 clone) amp and a Rythmik F12SE sub. I currently have Ascend Sierra-1s which I am very happy with but the Salks are very tempting . Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this .

Bill

[jd3]

Bill,
I can't comment yet on the performance difference but I've got a pair of Song Birds on order and will likely set them up as mains for a bit in my system to compare to my ST's.  I owned Sierra 1's (L, R, and center) before getting my ST's.  The difference in sq was dramatic for me.  While the Sierra's are a great bookshelf speaker, the imaging, soundstage, and off axis response of the ST's are dramatically better IMO.  The sound is much more open and midrange detail is significantly better too.  Up until the time I got ST's, all my speakers sounded the same to my wife.  The ST's made such a difference to her ears that she's gaining appreciation for my 'addiction' and wanted to order the Song Birds to complement our HT system.   Once I get the Song Birds I'll do a comparison and let you know.

John

[billmcc]

John,

Thanks for your thoughts and look forward to your impressions of the Song Birds compared to the STs .

Has anyone else compared the Song Birds to the STs? Are there any Song Bird owners that would care to share their impressions of them?

Bill

[jsalk]

John,

Thanks for your thoughts and look forward to your impressions of the Song Birds compared to the STs .

Has anyone else compared the Song Birds to the STs? Are there any Song Bird owners that would care to share their impressions of them?

Bill

You will not likely get any comments since the SongBird's are a new speaker and the first production pairs are only now starting to come through the production process.  So other than staff members who built the initial test batch, there are no exisiting owners.  Hopefully we'll have some out there in the next two weeks or so.

- Jim

[Art_Chicago]

You will not likely get any comments since the SongBird's are a new speaker and the first production pairs are only now starting to come through the production process.  So other than staff members who built the initial test batch, there are no exisiting owners.  Hopefully we'll have some out there in the next two weeks or so.

- Jim

well, Jim, I think all the Salk owners would appreciate your opinion, so please a few words about the sound of  SB's

[billmcc]

You will not likely get any comments since the SongBird's are a new speaker and the first production pairs are only now starting to come through the production process.  So other than staff members who built the initial test batch, there are no exisiting owners.  Hopefully we'll have some out there in the next two weeks or so.

- Jim

Jim,

Thanks, I did not realize the Song Birds were not out in the wild yet. If you would not mind giving your thoughts on the differences I would appreciate it.

Bill

[kip_]

Jim,

Thanks, I did not realize the Song Birds were not out in the wild yet. If you would not mind giving your thoughts on the differences I would appreciate it.

Bill

The SongTowers are going to be more efficient and play louder for the same amount of power. Vertical dispersion will be different for a MT vs a MTM configuration - less floor-ceiling interactions on the SongTower (MTM).

[jsalk]

OK, I'll give it a shot.  But I am going to spend a little time talking about the genesis of these speakers.  Pardon, in advance, to Dennis Murphy if a get this story a little wrong.

A number of years ago, Dennis developed a bookshelf speaker called the SPCA special (yes, he is a dog lover).  This used a Peerless SK0 130 woofer and a TB1 tweeter.  Later, the speaker was redesigned as the MBOW1 using the slightly smoother M130 woofer and the Hiquphon OW1 tweeter.

About this time, we started work on the Veracity HT1's.  When they were finished, I went to a DIY speaker building event and thought that the our new baby's, the HT1's, would be the best speaker at the show.  Since I had just finished a pair of MBOW1's, I thought I'd bring them along as well.

I think most people there were in agreement that the HT1's were the best speaker at the event.  But the next day, when I went to read people's comments online, most mentioned the superiority of the HT1's, but the majority of comments were how impressed they were with the over-achieving MBOW1's.  I vowed to never make that mistake again.

Over the years, the MBOW1 evolved into the CAOW1 and the drivers used in that speaker design were the same basic drivers used in the SongTowers (the OW2's were used in place of the OW1's since higher sensitivity was required).

We get comments from time to time that our SongSurrounds should be renamed.  The gist of the comments are that they are simply too good to be relegated to surround duty.  I agree.  I still have a couple of pairs of these bookshelf speakers and they are certainly over-achievers.

So when Dennis first began talking to me about the SongTowers, I thought I knew what they would sound like since they used the same basic drivers as the CAOW1's.

I knew the SongTowers would be good, but I wasn't particularly interested in bringing a speaker in that price range to market.  We were building speakers one pair at a time and I didn't see how we could make money without being more production-oriented.

Dennis continued to lobby for the design and about 8 months later I said I would build a pair and give them a listen.  Now, I thought I knew just what to expect.  But when I fired up that first pair, I realized within the first 30 seconds (literally) that I was listening to something very special.  This was a speaker that deserved to have an audience.  And I would simply have to find a way to produce it in an economical fashion.

While no speaker is capable of doing absolutely everything (the SongTowers will not play bass to 20Hz), the thing that really makes them stand out to me is they do not do anything wrong.  From the very beginning, I could not find a single thing that I would change where that design is concerned.  I feel strongly that no other speaker being sold today at or near that price point can equal the SongTowers in terms of performance.  Some may play deeper, perhaps, but certainly not better over all.

Once the SongTower was established, John Fallows, one of our associates, came up with the idea of doing a single woofer version of the speaker.  It made sense.  We knew the CAOW1 (SongSurrounds) was a stellar bookshelf speaker that that the SongTowers with their transmission line cabinet generated bass response you would not normally associate with 5" drivers.  So we gave it a try.

As I have said many times in the past, speaker design is all about managing trade-offs.  If you ask a driver to play deeper, it will go deeper at the expense of power handling.  It will need to move more air as the bass extension increases, and this will take ever increasing amounts of cone movement.  At some point, the cone will simply bottom out as it will run out of XMAX.

So we knew from the start that the SongBird's will not handle as much power as the SongSurrounds (because we were asking it to play deeper).  But we also knew the bass response would be quite a bit more extended.

How do they sound?  In a word, fabulous.  They image like crazy, are very detailed and accurate and have more bass extension than you should rightfully expect from a 5" driver. 

It is obviously unrealistic to think they can play as loud as the SongTowers without running into the limits imposed by the XMAX of the ER15 driver.  (Yes, the CA15 was recently replaced by the ER15.)

They are also not tuned quited as low as the SongTowers so they do not play quite as low.  But at moderate levels, they sound simply wonderful.  In my opinion, they sound every bit as good as the SongTowers.  They are amazing speakers.

They are perfect for bedroom speakers, surround speakers and main speakers in a smaller room where high volume reproduction is not required.  If you like to crank things up once and a while, the SongTowers are a better choice.  If you listen at reasonable levels, however, the SongBird's are a hard act to top and provide sound quality worthy of their breed.

I hope this helps.

- Jim

[billmcc]

Jim,

Thank you for taking the time to give a very detailed explanation of the evolution and sound qualities of the Song Birds. From your thoughts the STs might be the better choice as I do like to play music fairly loud at times. Would using a sub and crossing over the Song Birds at say 80 Hz help with its ability to play loud?

I emailed you a short time ago before I saw this post so please disregard my questions on the SQ differences between the STs and the Song Birds. Your thoughts were very helpful and thanks again for your time .

Take care, Bill

[Big Red Machine]

IMO Bill, if you don't have the sub, then get the ST's.  It is a pain in the whoohoo to integrate and place a sub sometimes.  Go deep out of the box.

If you already have the sub, then Songbirds would be great.  When you look at the cost differential, the sub will bring the price above a nice set of Songtowers in a special veneer.

Either way, you win.

[billmcc]

IMO Bill, if you don't have the sub, then get the ST's.  It is a pain in the whoohoo to integrate and place a sub sometimes.  Go deep out of the box.

If you already have the sub, then Songbirds would be great.  When you look at the cost differential, the sub will bring the price above a nice set of Songtowers in a special veneer.

Either way, you win.

BRM,

Thanks for your thoughts . I do have a sub that being a Rythmik F12SE. I am torn between getting the STs and going back to my old sub which is a Outlaw LFM-1 Plus that I still have. Then I could go subless for 2 CH listening. When there are too many choices I tend to have the deer in the headlights look . If only money was not an issue it would be a much easier decision.

Bill

[billmcc]

I just had a very pleasant phone chat with Jim and he very patiently answered my many questions . One suggestion he made was why not go with the Song Surround 1s instead of the Song Birds. It is not very often that the owner of a company will suggest a lower priced product. I really appreciate that and it is a great suggestion.

I am going to think about what I am going to order over the weekend then call Jim on Monday. But I think now it is between the STs and the Song Surround 1s. Jim also suggested not ordering the Song Center now if cost is an issue. Once again a suggestion to keep costs down which is quite special IMO . I have been very happy with my Sierra-1s for over a year but the old upgrade bug has bitten me big time. Now how do I explain this to my wife when I told her I was done after getting the new sub .

Bill

[Rocket]

Hi Bill,

If I were you I would be placing my order in the next few days because there is going to be an imminent price increase due to rising costs of components.

It would be difficult to find a better sounding and quality workmanship for the price that Jim offers.  Just go for the Songtowers because you will regret it in the end and just want to upgrade later i.e. just bite the bullet imo.

Regards

Rod

[DMurphy]

I usually don't get into these kinds of discussions, but if you already have the Sierras and are looking for a clear upgrade, then I think using the ST's full range for music and pairing the existing sub with the existing Sierras will give you the biggest increase in perceived sound quality.

[billmcc]

Hi Bill,

If I were you I would be placing my order in the next few days because there is going to be an imminent price increase due to rising costs of components.

It would be difficult to find a better sounding and quality workmanship for the price that Jim offers.  Just go for the Songtowers because you will regret it in the end and just want to upgrade later i.e. just bite the bullet imo.

Regards

Rod

Rod,

Thanks for the heads up on the pricing. When I talked to Jim we discussed that and I will try to do something before the prices increase. I can fully understand why the Jim has to increase pricing. Even with the increase I'm sure the STs will still be one of the best deals out there for custom speakers. I have to agree with you that the STs are the way to go but I have to weigh all options .

Bill

[billmcc]

I usually don't get into these kinds of discussions, but if you already have the Sierras and are looking for a clear upgrade, then I think using the ST's full range for music and pairing the existing sub with the existing Sierras will give you the biggesdt increase in perceived sound quality.

Hi Dennis,

Are you suggesting that the ST's without a sub is the way to go over the Sierras with a sub? Sorry but I'm on no sleep so I'm not quite getting your thoughts .

Bill

[DMurphy]

Hi Dennis,

Are you suggesting that the ST's without a sub is the way to go over the Sierras with a sub? Sorry but I'm on no sleep so I'm not quite getting your thoughts .

Bill

That's what I meant to say.  I regard the ST as a complete speaker.   I think the midrange is in balance with the bass and with the tweeter, and they all work together to provide a seamless, clean presentation.  You can achieve deeper bass with a sub, but the overall results will be a crap shoot.  If cost is a factor (and it always is with me), and you can use your existing sub with the Sierras for HT, then I would let the ST's do their thing alone for music.  If you can't hear an improvement in clarity over your other speakers, and if you've ordered a standard veneer, I think you can send them back.   But I don't think you will.

[billmcc]

That's what I meant to say.  I regard the ST as a complete speaker.   I think the midrange is in balance with the bass and with the tweeter, and they all work together to provide a seamless, clean presentation.  You can achieve deeper bass with a sub, but the overall results will be a crap shoot.  If cost is a factor (and it always is with me), and you can use your existing sub with the Sierras for HT, then I would let the ST's do their thing alone for music.  If you can't hear an improvement in clarity over your other speakers, and if you've ordered a standard veneer, I think you can send them back.   But I don't think you will.

Dennis,

Due to the size of my room I would have to decide between the STs and the Sierras. From what I have read the STs should provide better SQ for music but they should at almost double the cost. I agree that if I did order the STs I'm sure they would be staying .

Jim's suggestion of the Song Surrounds with my Rthymik F12SE sub is an option as well. He feels the Song Surrounds would give me the imaging, detail and resolution of the STs but without the lower end and power capability of the STs. I know it is hard to integrate a sub with monitors but if I can get close to the SQ of the STs with the Song Surrounds it might be the way to go. But...... the STs are very tempting .

Bill

[Nuance]

Another vote for the SongTower's here.  Nothing touches them for $3000 or less IMO.

[coke]

the STs are very tempting .

This statement leads me to believe that you really want the songtowers.  Buy them and have no regrets. I've made so many mistakes in the past of buying something that was "good" instead of getting what I really wanted.

I don't really see anything that would be gained in performance by going with the surrounds or the songbirds.  It does make sense financially to go with one of those setups though since you already have a sub.  The mids and highs would be pretty much the same as the songtowers, and you'd have a nice sub to fill in the bottom end.

 I've never heard a system though where the sub completely blended in.  I can always hear them and it distracts me from the music.  I prefer full range speakers with no sub for most music.  Sometimes I do like to listen to music LOUD though,  so that I can "feel the music".  In these instances, I don't care as much about how accurate the sound is, as much as I do the dynamics and impact.  In these cases, a powered sub is a nice addition.   

Personally if I was in your position, I would go with the songtowers.  They'd provide nice full range sound on their own, and then you'd have the sub to add some extra low end if it was ever desired.


(I've never actually heard the songtowers.  The statements above are based upon my experience with my HT2-TLs and my estimate on how the songtowers perform.)