[claud]

Carl,
Thanks for being our host. It was a very enjoyable meeting, and I did get to hear the GMA Europas, the GRs, and some decent homebuilts. Any time you combine beer, nice gear and guys, it's a lot of fun. Tim and I were the oldest guys by far, which made us happy. Most meetings about pure two channel audio ( Carolina Audio Society )are mostly old guys like us. Yesterday was dominated buy young, bright audiophiles. At least in the Triangle, our hobby is in good hands.
Carl has a great well treated room. Excellent for listening and comparing gear. I thought the Europas were the best, most balanced speaker, but the DAC comparo was too close for my old ears to call between the BelCanto and Carl's.
Can't wait to do it again. If Tim provides the house, I'll buy the beer. Everybody wants Miller Lite, Right?

[Carlman]

I just woke up so, bear with me...
I've had a couple of questions about the CDP and Europa's.  

Out of 7 people who heard all 3 pairs, I think 3 people didn't care for the Europa's as much as something else.  2 people liked the GR's better, and 1 person preferred the DIY speakers overall.  

If you like a natural, realistic speaker for midrange-heavy, close-mic'ed type music... piano, vocals, acoustic guitar, jazz, etc... I think the Europas were the clear choice.  If you liked classical or wanted more extension in the highs, the GR's had more detail and appealed more in that area.

I personally rarely listen to classical but, I find the Europa's OK when I do.  Others didn't think they'd cut it for them.   What say you, Vrao and Bruno?

As to the Eastern Electric MM CDP, that was a hit.  Everyone thought it sounded detailed and smoothed that I heard comment about it.  I'll write more about my personal opinion later but, it was very well recieved.

We listened to the EE MM preamp for the whole session.  No one complained or wanted to hear another preamp.  Plus, we didn't really have time.  The preamp was very good for comparisons.

The Bel Canto Evo's sound is different than the EEMM/AKSA combo in that it's quieter and a little more analytical.  However, its strength is the same as its weakness.  It handled delicate music a tad bit better than the AKSA and had just as much gusto/headroom in stronger passages.  I put the EEMM CDP as a source and the analytical nature helped extract a few more details while the tubes provided that smooth, warmth the BC (I think) needed.  There was no grain or other negatives about the BC.  It's a solid performer.    

That's all for now... need coffee...

[vrao81]

First off, let me extend another thanks to Carlman for letting us crazy audio geeks into his house, feeding us pizza and beer, and letting us play with his gear. This was a great gathering with a great bunch of enthusiastic people! You guys simply rock! I'm definitely looking forward to our next meet, although my apartment is out as the location, as its just barely big enough for me and my toys.

As for listening, let me say that the three speakers we had on hand are all great sounding, and I would be happy to own any of them, although that won't happen in the immediate future due to my budget (jack-squat, since i'm a student   ). I originally liked the GR's the most, but after getting home and thinking about it some, I think I'm leaning towards the Green Mountain Europas more. The GR's are a speaker that impress you right away with its extended and detailed top end, but after listening for a while, as Carlman said, can wear you down. The GR's are a good hifi speaker, but they don't convey the emotion and soul of the music like the GMA's do.
Now as for the GMA's, they don't really sound like a speaker to me, they're more of a music conveying device (Carlman mentioned something like this on the first page of this thread). From a sonic standpoint, they are not really impressive. They're colored, they have a rich, warm sound, they sound rolled off at the top, and they lack overt detail. And the bass rolls off quite early so you'll need a sub. But what they do accomplish is present music in the most real and natural way that I've heard from a speaker before. While the music I was listening to was unfamiliar, I was struck by how natural instruments sounded and how real the vocals were. It really felt almost like the musicians were in the room. The music was presented effortlessly and instead of trying to critique the speaker you simply disappeard into the music. I can see why these are wildly popular, but I can also see why someone who prefers a lively, exciting, very detailed sound would not like these.
As for the DIY speakers on hand, I did not get to listen to them much but I thought they were darker and a bit closed in that the other two. A violin piece that sounded too shrill with the other speakers sounded more relaxed with these. The build quality was pretty good too. Overall a pretty good performance by Tim here.

[Hantra]

Time for a few impressions from the gathering.  

First off, I enjoyed meeting all the guys that I didn't know, and I think that Carl hosts a fine gathering.  

With that out of the way, I must say that the surprise for me was the Green Mountain Audio Europas.  I knew they'd be interesting b/c Carl was going crazy over them, but I was unprepared really to like them as much as I did.  

I was utterly amazed by the presentation of the GMA's.  The music came from everywhere except the speakers.  Those speakers have the ability to throw sound where it should be, and they sound so "box-free".  An $800 pair of speakers has no right to sound like that!  

While many people wanted to listen to the "more revealing" GR Research speaker for certain comparisons, I preferred spending all the time I could with the GMA's.  Comparison or not, if I can't enjoy it, I'd rather not spend the time listening.  Sure. . I realize I will be in the minority, and possibly receive a demerit from the NC group for saying that, but that's my take on things.  

The digital comparison was interesting.  I hate doing digital comparisons where I bring my own digital rig.  I just end up preferring mine every single time, and how unbiased does that look?  But I did prefer my digital by a large margin over all the other digital there.  

IMO, the MiniMax CD player was great.  In its price range, it fares very well among the competition, and on certain tracks, it had a more "live" sound to me.  But only on rock music did it sound more live.  On piano, or acoustic music, I much preferred the Bel Canto DAC 2 over the Minimax.  But let's face it, the BC DAC is more money than the MiniMax, and one would still have to invest in a transport with the BC.  

The thing I did not like about the BC DAC 2 is the high frequencies.  While they were very extended, and extremely clear, I believe that they suffered from too much "sizzle".  This was more evident in Carl's setup than the last time I heard this DAC.  Many people like this extra sizzle, but I do not find it natural at all, and sometimes it is quite offensive.  It does not occur in live music, and I find it unnecessary.  Anyone that knows me will know that I am accustomed to good, non-oversampled digital, and when you get used to this, there is no going back to the "sizzle".  So, I suppose I am a bit biased.  

The one thing I was most looking forward to hearing was the Bel Canto Evo2i.  This was a VERY impressive amplifier.  I was really struck by how well it performed against the formidable AKSA.  It was only with the Bel Canto that I actually was able to hear the weakness of the AKSA.  IMO, the AKSA is like a Rottweiler that eats only gunpowder, and is constantly just LOOKING for someone to tear apart.  This amplifier is so high-current, it looks for the next transient, and devours it with blinding speed.  After hearing the BC, I realize that this behavior also means that it sometimes misses the delicate passages, and overlook them because of its zeal for transience.  

When the Bel Canto entered the room, she was very deceptive, and didn't let on to her true power and speed until it was necessary to do so.  The BC handled the delicate passages with the lightest touch, like Phil Mickelson on a 10 yard chip shot onto the green.  But she also pulled the John Daly when called for, and she drove the green every time.  This amplifier did not run out of gas with the GMA's, and was surprisingly emotional to me.  

I am totally looking forward to hearing what the BC can do in dual-differential mode.  I NEED my power.  

So, other than that, there was some great conversation, and some good eating and drinking.  I would rate the inaugural get-together a great success!

[Carlman]

like a Rottweiler that eats only gunpowder...

     
Geez Loweez... Maybe I need to adjust the bias a bit. This comment had me rolling, though.  

-C

[claud]

Hantra,
If that's your first time hearing the EVo amps, you are in for a further suprise. You did not hear it as you were supposed to. I had a 200.2 and an EVo2. BC says to leave them on all the time. Don't listen critically for 24 hours after turning it on. When Tim and I left, the BC was still sitting on the floor, unpluged. If you liked what you heard cold, you need to borrow one for a week. There is a lot to like with these amps. Stereo Times webzine has a review of the newest revised version of the EVo2.
I would have said something about the cold BC, but I thought Carl was not going to have time to use it. I'll bet it's a killer with the GMA Europas.
Regards,
claud

[BrunoB]

This was a great afternoon. Good beer from the North, good pizza and nice peoples. I would like to thank Carl again for organizing this listening session.

I am not going to write much about the electronics and speakers: my hearing is not as developed as the other guys. I can barely hear the difference between two dacs, my audio memory is too short for that.  I would need to spend way more time with the gear in a more familiar sounding environment to be able to write a valid comment.

However, my audio long term memory tells me that the room acoustic is WAY better than it was during the January session. I think that the main reason for improvement is the thick rug on the floor. The fiberglass panels and the folding door seem to do a good job too.

The GM Europa's are interesting speakers. I knocked on their side and was surprised to hear a “stone” sound, quite different from the wood box sound from the GR criterion. Carl told me that they are not made of wood but some kind of stone-polymer mixture if I remember correctly.
I don’t have much experience with subwoofers. I would say that Carl’s sub (Adire?) is a sub that does its job very well without being noticed. The integration with the speakers was excellent. I have never noticed vibrations in the floor or in the listening couch, something I always find distracting.

At first, the Europas were disappointing. They do not sound bright enough for my taste. I preferred the Criterion’s or Tim’s speakers for classical music playing.
At the end of the listening session, the Bel Canto amplifier was brought in to the game. It was driving the Europa's, that we choose by vote (hum) to use for the electronics comparison. And suddently, to my ears, the music came to life. I started enjoying the music with the Europa's. I had the impression that the transients were faster, the sound more transparent plus other things that I cannot describe. I guess one of the reasons of my enjoyment is that I am used to digital amps. I also liked the Europa's when driven by my Sharp digital amp.

Now the imaging question. It was fun to argue with Carl about the Prokofiev violin CD that I played again. On his system, we hear two violins, one to the left, one to the right. On my system, there is one player well focused between the two speakers. Who’s right? May be me, because we played Prokofiev’s  Sonata For Solo Violin In D Major, Op. 115 … Anyway, next time Carl will have new heavy draped curtains on the windows behind the speakers. According to my experience, having strong sound adsorption between and behind the two front speakers is very useful to improve image focus.

Looking forward for the next session,

Bruno

[BikeWNC]

Well you guys really didn't have too much to say considering the session lasted almost 7 hours!  I just want to comment on the Criterions.  Having had these speakers in my system and now owning the Diluceos, I can appreciate the comments made in this thread.  I much prefer the sound I get from these speakers when using both a tube pre and amp.  I think the reason is both my preference for a warmer sound and the neutrality of the speakers themselves.  I believe they give what you feed them.  So in that respect I can see why some would prefer the Europas over the Diluceos.  Synergy is always the name of the game.  

Carl, did you buy a BC Dac2?  It has been a good one for me.

Andy

[Carlman]

I'm overdue with a full report... but, no I do not have the BC DAC2.  It was a piece brought over by a local dealer and AC member, Shane.  (aka hometheaterdoc)  He also brought the Evo 2i.  

Here's what I have in my mind at the moment...

I like the Europas more than any other speaker I've ever heard.... which is only a few dozen.... well maybe 60-100 pairs...
Anyway, I'd heard (and liked) the Diluceo's that Andy had brought over and thought the Criterion would be a good choice.  After sitting and listening to the Criterion's for a long time, I was unsatisfied.  I thought they tried too hard to get unrealistic highs and reach into lows that weren't correct to my ear.  They sounded technically better but, sounded less like music to me.  I didn't care for the ribbons after long sessions... after about 2 cd's I didn't want to listen anymore.

Conversely, when I listen to the Europa's, I settle in and can listen forever.  There is no fatigue.  When people left Saturday, my ears felt no different than before people arrived.  However, I did feel completely spent thanks to eating a bunch of pizza and drinking a few AWESOME beers. (Thanks again, Shane!)

So, I've decided to use my normal, current system, Europas, AKSA, Decware ZTpre, Pioneer/Museatex....  This combo yields a quiet noise floor, holographic imaging and slightly aggressive yet warm sound.  It sounds very close to natural.  It gets inner details mostly right.

Changing the preamp to a Minimax w/ NOS yields a little more palpability in vocals.  It's a small difference but, a huge effect.  It sounds like the singer is IN my room.

Changing the preamp to the AR SP-9 (w/NOS) yields a little more aggressive sound and the highs are not as natural as the Minimax.  It's a little more aggressive than I like and has a little too much tube bloom.

OK, change back to the Minimax... it's the best.... now time for a digital comparison....

First, my rig, great rendering of sounds but, not extremely smooth like analog but, impressive... also noted is good imaging, placement, details are there, etc.

Now, placing the Minimax digital rig into the mix, the soundstage gets wider, deeper, and low level details are readily apparent.  Attack on instruments has a realness to it not found in my own rig.  However, the actual instrument or vocal doesn't seem to have the inner details I want.. like a recording instead of an experience... but, it does everything else better than my own rig... I don't get it.  Others don't hear this issue, just me.  So, could it be psycological?  ugh.

Onto the Bel Canto DAC2, my first reaction is mmmmm, nice... very musical, darker background, instruments and vocals have a beatifully presented pace and 'musicality' that my own rig somewhat lacks.  I like it, a lot.  It combines the smoothness of the Minimax and the details of my rig.  

I'll skip the PC for now, just saying it was best to me.  I'm inspired to build it.  However, I want to continue showing the 'conventional' gear's synergistic matches/mismatches...

Let's switch amps entirely!  Let's use that Bel Canto Evo2 integrated.  First, let's use the BC DAC2 with the Pioneer transport... WOW, here come the details... but, to me, all the details includes digital sounds that make for a less warm or rounded presentation.  It may be better technically but, maybe I like a little color in my sound. ?  I don't care for the combo but, clearly the amp is rockin'.

I wonder if the Minimax might help remove that digital edge... YES, it does.  Not only that, the Evo extracts every detail possible out of that player and paints a beautiful soundstage of lively sound.  From quiet to loud it GETS IT, gets it all, and gets it right!  I'm stoked.  I think this combo is an ideal combination of getting the instruments' inner details and giving a smooth, slightly warm and lively presentation.  No fatigue, just great sound.  The amp would not run out of steam on the Europa's at listening level I'd do.

So, my guess is that my rig would fall in the middle with the Evo.  So, I don't bother hooking it up.

Lastly, a part most people missed... Bruno connected the Sharp digital amp to the Europa's and played the Violin solo.  Again, we had what sounded like 2 violin players standing next to each other in the center while with the Sharp, it sounded like 1.  I still think there are 2 players based on the fact that I hear 2 different violins.  There's no way 1 person can be playing some of those notes at the same time.  Maybe one day I'll be proven wrong but, I stand by what I think.  Maybe 'solo' was misinterpreted into English?     Otherwise, the Sharp sounded OK but it was missing a lot of detail and smoothness I'd enjoyed with the other amps.  The power just isn't there to make it sound real to me.  Also, the Europa's are 4-ohm and 88db.  I don't know if that's a good match.


Ok... last night I listened to my 'normal' rig again.  Without having 16 items plugged in at the same time, the sound is incredible.  I didn't have an ounce of fatigue and I just melted into the sound.  While I like what the Evo did... and definitely what Brandon's PC did for me, I just didn't 'need' to improve it right away.  I can wait and keep moving as time goes on.

[lonewolfny42]

Carl, ...What no pictures ?   Nice review , thanks......what musical selections did you use to audition the equipement with besides the  solo violin cd ? Thanks !

[Carlman]

I have photos.. if no one objects by this evening, I'll post them tomorrow or Thursday.

We used an Audioquest CD... track 5 IIRC... can't remember the name but, excellent for details...  

We also used a Dave Matthews CD, 'Up and Away'... and the first track from Monty Alexander's live album.

BTW, someone left me an extra Audience PowerChord... hmm... who here likes Audience?....  hmmmm... I haven't used it in fear that it might sound good.  But, I'll do a side-by-side comparo soon....  and then tear myself away as I put it in an envelope and ship it...  
 
The little cable labels will be on their was as well, Shane.

[nature boy]

Great reviews, comments, and observations.  The NC audiophile club rocks.  
Knock back some more cold brews and enjoy your equipment.    

NB

[Shawn]

I'd just like to thank Carl for hosting the get-together this weekend, it was a blast!  You have a great house dude.  Anyway, I came away very impressed with the Europa's, they are one of the most musically satisfying speakers I have heard in quite some time.  The music just seem to flow out of them without much effort, and the soundstage seemed to be limited by the size of the room.  I was kind of skeptical b/c of all the hype surrounding them, but I would recommend these speakers in a heartbeat to those looking for great sound on a budget.  They are butt-ugly, though!  Just my NSHO.  Shane, thanks for bringing the Bel Canto stuff to listen to, it was great to have a chance to finally hear the EVO 2i for myself, I think that's the model#.  It was very clean without being sterile, and very fast as well.  It was great to meet you, and know I have a new dealer to bug about equipment, hehe.  It really was a pleasure meeting everyone, and I look forward to the next get-together.  The wife and I are thinking about going to the Tift Merritt show, and we'd love to see you all out there!!

[hometheaterdoc]

Ok... I've stayed hidden long enough...

I had an absolute blast meeting everyone, Saturday.  The conversation was great and it was nice to talk audio with someone other than myself or customers

I won't comment at all on equipment because I simply was not in front of it long enough to be able to give a valid opinion.  I spent entirely too much time just chatting with everyone outside the room. But it was very interesting to hear others opinions of what they were hearing.  It's fascinating to me to see how differenently people hear, or what is more important to them in musical reproduction.

I'm glad that everyone seemed to enjoy the Bel Canto stuff.  I know I enjoy it immensely

Carl, you really need to hear the DAC2 with some good copper interconnects and not the Ixos Ixotica pure silver interconnects I was using.  It's not quite as analytical sounding as what you heard on Saturday.

Thanks again Carl for hosting.  As I said on Saturday, everyone is welcome anytime to come listen to music at my place.  I only have a couple cases of good beer left.  You're welcome to help me finish it off!  I love sharing with people and showing how good it is.  Then they don't think I'm so crazy when I drive 24 hours straight each way to restock my supplies

Take care and I'm looking forward to seeing you all again at the next gathering!

Shane

[Hantra]

C:

I am picking up the ROWLANDS tomorrow night!!!  Don't be holding my power cord hostage man!!!!!

[Carlman]

Don't be holding my power cord hostage man!!!!!

Insert evil laugh here...    
I'll be shipping it tomorrow or Thursday.  It's been 2 late nights back to back.... I JUST got home after a super long day.

Thanks to everyone for chiming in.  I enjoyed having everyone that participated... either socially or listening to gear.  

I have no doubt that different IC's will change the character of the sound a bit.  I'd have to hear it to see if it did the trick.... but, I wouldn't look forward to the resulting purchase price.  I did like the tube cd with the BC, though.  Everything I like was there.

-C

EDIT: Here's a link to a list of photos of the listening session and room:
http://home.nc.rr.com/candcm/images/