[kumar]

Why are the VMPS subs so cheap?  They are passive but still, they are priced fairly low for a high end product.

Can they go deep and loud at the smae time? Has anyone compared to SVS subwoofers?

[PLMONROE]

They go loud and they go low and they go clean! But if price is a discriminator I 'll bet that Brian will make an exception and let one pay more for them. 

Paul

[jonbee]

I've owned three and if I had the room for them now that is what I would use, hands down. With a good amp they trounce anything uner $3k that I've heard. They go very deep, tight, with amazing definition. The NOS sub is the first sub I'd heard that actually imaged bass like other good speakers image the midrange. Category killers, if you have the room for them.

[Darac]

What kind of amplifiers Brian suggested ? Well I am think that good-very good amps cost like fortune, maybe I have wrong.

[Brian Cheney]

We use the rackmount 1000W mono amps (with 24dB electronic crossover and single band parametric EQ) from partsexpress.com, $400 and the smaller 500W plate amp (same features) $329.  They work fine, but there are many good prosound amps out there that work well for bass, and many electronic crossovers such as the Behringer DEQ.

We currently have five models of subwoofers from $549ea to $5500ea, so there should be some expense level in our line the OP would be comfortable with.

[John Casler]

Why are the VMPS subs so cheap?  They are passive but still, they are priced fairly low for a high end product.

Can they go deep and loud at the smae time? Has anyone compared to SVS subwoofers?

ALL of the VMPS products might be considered inexpensive relative to their performance level.

Brian seems to have always been Price/Performance oriented to give his customers "more" performance that the price might suggest.

There are many High End Stand Mounts that are in a price league with even the RM40's

As far as performance, the foundation goal of "EACH and EVERY" VMPS product is accurate musical reproduction.

When looking at the SUBWOOFER market you have many who only focus on the HT market and HUGE SPL readings.  Some to an extent that might seem "overkill".

In general the laws of Physics predict that extremely large excursions and massive Drivers will have higher distortions.

B, rides the "edge" of low distortion and high dynamic performance.  So, if you have a HUGE room and need to recreate the SPL's of an atomic explosion you might want to get a couple of the VMPS subs, but if you live in the real world most of the time, and all you want is "concert level" listening then a well placed VMPS sub will likely satisfy.  This will be particulalrly evident in the inner detail and rich harmonic overtones of a well tuned sub.

[kumar]

ALL of the VMPS products might be considered inexpensive relative to their performance level.

Brian seems to have always been Price/Performance oriented to give his customers "more" performance that the price might suggest.

There are many High End Stand Mounts that are in a price league with even the RM40's

As far as performance, the foundation goal of "EACH and EVERY" VMPS product is accurate musical reproduction.

When looking at the SUBWOOFER market you have many who only focus on the HT market and HUGE SPL readings.  Some to an extent that might seem "overkill".

In general the laws of Physics predict that extremely large excursions and massive Drivers will have higher distortions.

B, rides the "edge" of low distortion and high dynamic performance.  So, if you have a HUGE room and need to recreate the SPL's of an atomic explosion you might want to get a couple of the VMPS subs, but if you live in the real world most of the time, and all you want is "concert level" listening then a well placed VMPS sub will likely satisfy.  This will be particulalrly evident in the inner detail and rich harmonic overtones of a well tuned sub.

I am in the Uk and i was considering making a purchase but then your Europe distributor quoted me a price of $500 just for shipping. How can that be? That defeats the purpose of offering an inexpensive product/performance level ratio.

Also one of your selling points is low distortion but how are we to know whether that actually matters? Some argue that distortion at low frequencies is inaudible? Furthermore, the room is likely to distort the soundwaves anyway.
What would you say to that?

[Brian Cheney]

A few years ago I published measurements here on one of our subwoofers with the PR untuned compared with the recommended, quite small, amount of user adjustment to its moving mass, less than 1g out of a total of over 90g.  The measured 2nd harmonic at 20Hz dropped from 10% to under 2%, and the sound became noticably cleaner.  From this I conclude that under these conditions, reduction in non linear distortion is audible and desirable, even at bass frequencies.  I note that designers who disagree with me do not have the ability to tune the bass system of their speakers in this manner.

As for shipping to the UK, contact an international forwarder (ocean) for a quotation on 50kg or 100kg of freight ex Oakland CA to your nearest point of entry.  It's not that high, about the same as shipping by truck from our factory to Florida or Maine. Fees and duty are additional, of course.

[kumar]

what is this business about tuning? I dont understand what you mean by this. can you explain? What is PR untuned?

So if I order the sub, is it going to be shipped from Califronia to UK? If so i dont see the point in a European distributor i thought they had the products there and they would ship it from there to here. Again I am confused about this arrangement.

[dubravko]

Hello Kumar,
it was nice to exchange e-mails but we can also continue here.
 
Reliable, not-overnight air-shipping of one say mid-sized VMPS sub, like 215 or Original from US to EU costs around $500, and that is an estimate that I quoted you. It is only an estimate since charges constantly vary due to many factors. A shipping for a pair of such subwoofers will cost practically like a shipping of a pair of VMPS RM2. Ocean shipping will cost only slightly less, but may take up to 90 days, and only very rarely less than 60 days. From my experience, during that period most customers develop a strong desire for paying $XYZ extra instead of waiting that long. Significant difference in cost shows only when it is about RM2 vs. RM40. In that case you will save $500 from going ocean instead of air, but it will take mentioned time. It is also worth mentioning that ocean shipping requires more loading/unloading points/agents and it is less safe, particularly for packages which do not require fork lifter.
 
When we get to within EU terrestrial shipping, it gets even more interesting. For instance, shipping of one Original sub from Croatia to Italy was quoted to me $380, and we are almost neighboring countries. Not to forget that subwoofer already had some shipping expense “in it” from traveling from US to EU first, so those $380 could not be a shipping total for a customer or it would lead to losing money.
 
Another example, air shipping of a pair of Larger subwoofers from US to Norway was 540 EUR (or around $700 then).
 
I guess it is obvious what to choose...
 
Summed up, worst speaker price/shipping charge ratio is for one of smaller subwoofers and a pair of 626R, ocean or air, the best is ocean for a pair of RM40s and up, or a 5.1 set of speakers.
 
All that shipping situation would be different if VMPS is sold worldwide in container quantities, but then it would not be VMPS anymore.
 
In the end, I don’t know if shipping prices are fair, but they are what they are, also Earth is the size that it is, and VMPS subwoofers are large and heavy as they are. I don’t think any of this will change soon. It seems low subwoofer prices are a core of this problem so a shipping charge can stick out that ugly.

[dubravko]

As for amplifiers, if only one is used and very high power is required, Dayton rack-mount amplifier is a great choice for a couple of reasons. However from what I know it is not available anywhere in EU, so we again have a shipping charge issue...

However, in smaller rooms there won't be so much power needed. In my experience ART SLA2 is a very good 2x 200W amplifier which is around 450 EUR over here. There are also many others. Key is to find reliable one with silent or near silent operation. Then to pair it with Behringer DCX 2496 which is here around 300 EUR.

Darac, you may check Wharfedale Pro amps with your friends at Provox, they start from 350 EUR for 2x 200W amplifier.

[cactusjack]

Kumar:
I own a VMPS Large sub woofer with Mega woofers and the sound coating and a SVS 16-46PC. I have owned the SVS for about 8 years and it is a good sub for the money however I could never get it to sound natural with Music. Plenty of Bass for the money. I found it was better suited to my HT system and that is where I have left it. The construction is somewhat poor and I have had to perform maintenance on the enclosure and the amp several times. The VMPS is physically a large, heavy and much better construction. I drive it with the 500 watt Dayton sub woofer amplifier that I installed in a  separate wood enclosure. I have had no trouble with sub or amp since I got it. I read that part about not being able to hear bass distortion but I have notice that the VMPS produces much cleaner, clearer bass than my SVS. It sounds natural with music and works awesome with movies.
Overall, I would recommend the VMPS Large over the SVS round shaped subs in a heartbeat (I have no personal experience with SVS's Cube shaped subs). The assistance you can get here from John and Brian is also a plus that you will never experience at SVS. Not sure I answered your question but  I do own both and will eventually buy another large from VMPS when my son graduates from college ( 2.5 years).

[Brian Cheney]

Tuning the passive radiator is accomplished by adding or subtracting mass from the center of the PR cone.  See the sticky on "Setup Instructions for VMPS Speakers", specifically the section on "Putty Pinching".

[kumar]

Kumar:
I own a VMPS Large sub woofer with Mega woofers and the sound coating and a SVS 16-46PC. I have owned the SVS for about 8 years and it is a good sub for the money however I could never get it to sound natural with Music. Plenty of Bass for the money. I found it was better suited to my HT system and that is where I have left it. The construction is somewhat poor and I have had to perform maintenance on the enclosure and the amp several times. The VMPS is physically a large, heavy and much better construction. I drive it with the 500 watt Dayton sub woofer amplifier that I installed in a  separate wood enclosure. I have had no trouble with sub or amp since I got it. I read that part about not being able to hear bass distortion but I have notice that the VMPS produces much cleaner, clearer bass than my SVS. It sounds natural with music and works awesome with movies.
Overall, I would recommend the VMPS Large over the SVS round shaped subs in a heartbeat (I have no personal experience with SVS's Cube shaped subs). The assistance you can get here from John and Brian is also a plus that you will never experience at SVS. Not sure I answered your question but  I do own both and will eventually buy another large from VMPS when my son graduates from college ( 2.5 years).

How about the smaller Vmps sub called the dedicated subwoofer can this go down to 20hz?
Also is the 5% distortion figure still true at higher SPL levels? I think it is quoted for 1W input.

What music do you listen to and have you tested it to see how low it can go?

[kumar]

dubravko,

This is a very odd arrangement and I am not clear about your role as a European distributor if you cannot ship products to me. What is the point of shipping it to you and then to me? My understanding was that you carry stock of the VMPS products so that they can be shipped from you to other countries in Europe.

[John Casler]

what is this business about tuning? I dont understand what you mean by this. can you explain? What is PR untuned?

Hi Kumar,

As Brian mentioned take a look at the sticky that refers to "putty pinching".

In essence the VMPS have one or more "active drivers" that are driven by their motors, and a single Passive Radiator that passively "reacts" to the changes in internal cabinet pressures created by the active woofers.

The mass (putty) on the PR is what controls how quickly or slowly the PR reacts.

In any system of multiple drivers there is a "perfect" synchronization of those drivers to produce the lowest distortion.  If one of the drivers is "off" then it will present phasing distortions relative to the other drivers.

The reason the very "precise" putty pinching can be so effective is that actually ALL the drivers are affected by the resistance/impedance (physical not electrical) inside the cabinet, so even the active drivers are being slightly "tuned" by encountering any adjustment to the PR.

This sensitivity makes for an extremely precise level of adjustment in the syncing up of all the drivers.

Without any tuning at all except what Brian does at the factory the subs have a lower distortion than most other subs.

If you have a little patience and desire you can allow the sub to break in and then slowly "fine tune" it to a level most people will never attain with conventional subs.

WHY?  because once you have experienced the sonic qualities that many never hear in their low frequencies you realize what bass is all about.

People like Victor Wooten, and Dean Peer become very important to you as they are premier Bassists and much of their music is just fogged in by most Subs.

[kumar]

Hi Kumar,

As Brian mentioned take a look at the sticky that refers to "putty pinching".

In essence the VMPS have one or more "active drivers" that are driven by their motors, and a single Passive Radiator that passively "reacts" to the changes in internal cabinet pressures created by the active woofers.

The mass (putty) on the PR is what controls how quickly or slowly the PR reacts.

In any system of multiple drivers there is a "perfect" synchronization of those drivers to produce the lowest distortion.  If one of the drivers is "off" then it will present phasing distortions relative to the other drivers.

The reason the very "precise" putty pinching can be so effective is that actually ALL the drivers are affected by the resistance/impedance (physical not electrical) inside the cabinet, so even the active drivers are being slightly "tuned" by encountering any adjustment to the PR.

This sensitivity makes for an extremely precise level of adjustment in the syncing up of all the drivers.

Without any tuning at all except what Brian does at the factory the subs have a lower distortion than most other subs.

If you have a little patience and desire you can allow the sub to break in and then slowly "fine tune" it to a level most people will never attain with conventional subs.

WHY?  because once you have experienced the sonic qualities that many never hear in their low frequencies you realize what bass is all about.

People like Victor Wooten, and Dean Peer become very important to you as they are premier Bassists and much of their music is just fogged in by most Subs.

Can you comment on how low the dedicated sub goes in a typical room? What would you say to the point about room induced distortion? When it comes to low frequencies, and accuracy the only way to do it is to have a room of the correct dimensions and size. Otherwise it's like trying to fit a drive unit into an arbitrary sized/shape box.

[John Casler]

Can you comment on how low the dedicated sub goes in a typical room? What would you say to the point about room induced distortion? When it comes to low frequencies, and accuracy the only way to do it is to have a room of the correct dimensions and size. Otherwise it's like trying to fit a drive unit into an arbitrary sized/shape box.

ALL subs and ANY speaker (sub or main) is subject to room created distortion effects.  Your whole system (no matter what the distortion levels of the amp or source) will also.

That would not be a reason to not look to lower System created distortions, but IS also a reason to look to ways to reduce your room effects.

The bass systems of the VMPS "main speakers" except the stand mount 626R, all have adjustable PR's too.

Brian can answer the question on the measured response of the various models.  There no longer is a "dedicated sub".  It's cabinet was discontinued.

[dubravko]

dubravko,

This is a very odd arrangement and I am not clear about your role as a European distributor if you cannot ship products to me. What is the point of shipping it to you and then to me? My understanding was that you carry stock of the VMPS products so that they can be shipped from you to other countries in Europe.

Hello Kumar,
there is no point in shipping to me and then to you so that is why we don't do it. An agent outside a country of origin have its reasons other than stocking products, like demonstrating and promoting products, giving support for local customers, prospective buyers etc. There is no stock of VMPS products anywhere, since all products are made to an order, be it a from a customer or agent in US or elsewhere.

In any case, my concern is to deal with VMPS in Europe with fair pricing, which is one of VMPS trademarks. Unfortunately, European price cannot be as attractive as US price since El Sobrante is 10.000 km away and we have custom import rate and much higher VAT*. I always offer and choose shipping options which are proven as reliable and competitively priced. If you have a better option for yourself, you are welcomed to use it. If needed, I'll give you knowledge support regarding VMPS products just as if you bought it through my service.

---
* EU import custom's rate is 4.5%. Average VAT is 19.5%. All that is added to base price + shipping.
A couple of other examples - my country has 23% VAT but custom rate is 0%, Scandinavian countries have 25% VAT, but if I'm not mistaken, Israel has total import fees of 116% for a loudspeaker under $1000.

[pmcneil]

I think that, short of adding an infinite baffle subwoofer (cheaper because your major cost is drivers, and they can be, even in a modestly budgeted system, long-throw, high Xmax... but you have do, or pay for, the requisite labor yourself, such as cutting holes in walls, IF this is a possibility...), a VMPS will, in my experience, be very high value for money (excluding, of course, any knowledge on my part of shipping costs from Ca to your island).

I have no experience with SVS subwoofers, but they do have a considerable reputation for moving lots of air (large 'swept volume' due to drivers with a 30 mm plus Xmax), if not musicality. This reputation is worth considering, as musicality is a more subjective judgement, in my opinion, than what you feel and can measure from enhanced displacement, in the bass region.