Hey Nuance, do all amplifiers sound the same?

jaxwired · « **on:** 23 May 2010, 12:10 pm »

Nuance,

I noticed your sig has that link to the old Ian Masters ABX blind amp test. Does that mean you think all amps sound the same? Just curious.

Everybody else, feel free to comment as well.

My opinion...nope they don't sound the same. I really think the idea is absurd. How could amps with completely different designs, parts, power ratings, etc., all sound indistinquishable? Not to mention the personal experience of thousands of audiophiles.

K Shep · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 May 2010, 12:27 pm »

Quote from: jaxwired on 23 May 2010, 12:10 pm

Nuance,

I noticed your sig has that link to the old Ian Masters ABX blind amp test. Does that mean you think all amps sound the same? Just curious.

Everybody else, feel free to comment as well.

My opinion...nope they don't sound the same. I really think the idea is absurd. How could amps with completely different designs, parts, power ratings, etc., all sound indistinquishable? Not to mention the personal experience of thousands of audiophiles.

jaxwired,

You ask a question, answer it then proceed to give an opinion. Your post is the definition of troll.

jaxwired · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 May 2010, 12:46 pm »

Whatever...

I'm just looking for discussion on the topic.

TJHUB · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 May 2010, 02:35 pm »

I think it's a valid question. Nuance does have the link in his signature...

And without any doubt, NO, all amps do not sound the same.

decal · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 May 2010, 02:43 pm »

Sure they do,just ask my 82 year old Mother and her friends in the knitting circle!!!

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 May 2010, 02:44 pm »

There are plenty of threads discussing amp comparisons. I'm probably headed to a comparison between 3 different amps today. But we'll only respond, if we do, with the politest responses as it is totally informal but driven out of curiosity.

K Shep · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 May 2010, 02:53 pm »

Quote from: TJHUB on 23 May 2010, 02:35 pm

I think it's a valid question.

It's a valid question if the question is presented with validity.

Quote from: jaxwired on 23 May 2010, 12:10 pm

I really think the idea is absurd.

I'm reading between the lines. IMO amps with the same specs sound the same. That isn't absurd it is proven fact.

groovybassist · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 May 2010, 03:04 pm »

Listen to a 50-watt Naim amp back-to-back with another 50-watter and you'll definitely hear the difference. The non-Naim will sound slow and sluggish. Which is right? Who knows, but there's a definite difference between Naim amps and others with the same power rating. I too believe different amps sound different. The differences are much more subtle than with speakers, but they're real. I used Naim amps for many years and am now using a Wyred4Sound STI-500 integrated amp - the difference between these was easy to hear. The Naim drives everything relentlessly, the Wyred drives songs that are intended to have it. The Naim isn't even close to the Wyred in terms of resolution. While I enjoy both, the Wyred is floating my boat more these days. I think I've come to the conclusion that while Naim's relentless drive is fun, it's a form of coloration just like any other.

R Swerdlow · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 May 2010, 04:54 pm »

I once met a guy named Bob Cordell at a DIY speaker meet. He is an EE who at an earlier time in his career, actually worked on audio amplifier design. He was responsible for convincing myself and others that large high-powered ("big iron") amps have an important role in audio. That was something I was reluctant to spend money on at the time.

He was interviewed by another DIY speaker builder, Peter (PJ) Smith, who posted it. Read the whole link and you'll find his input to the question in the OP.

It is the most intelligent discussion of this old and often debated subject that I've encountered:

http://jipihorn.free.fr/Documents/Divers%20Blog/Cordellinterview.pdf

groovybassist · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 May 2010, 05:03 pm »

Interesting - thanks for the link.

davidrs · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 May 2010, 05:47 pm »

R Swerdlow - thanks for the link with Bob Cordell's commentary on the topic.

Jaxwired - thanks for the original post. Learned a few new things - which is always a good thing.

Nuance · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 May 2010, 05:59 pm »

No, not all amps sound the same. Personally I think this thread is meant for the sole purpose of starting a fight. Nevertheless, I'll explain my thought process on this topic.

The link in my signature is for perspective. Its meant for the one-sided, single minded person, so they can see the objective side of the equation. Such tests as the one in my signature have proven that SS amplifiers that are properly made (with the intent to simply pass the signal along, not flavor it), operated within their specs, have high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, and low noise floor and aren't driven to clipping sound more alike than different. The differences are certainly there, in my opinion, but often not as large and obvious as many people on these forums claim. This also doesn't apply to tube amps and other amps that intentionally alter the signal to give a certain flavor to the sound. We all know amps such as these exist.

Audio is as much science as it is subjectiveness, and without both we cannot fully make an educated decision. This is where pysco-acoustics come into play, and if you haven't educated yourself with that side of the equation, your argument holds no ground here. Feel free to disagree and flame me, but this is my opinion based on my experiences (subjective) and the objective (scientific) side of audio. Without both this is just an opinionated hobby.

jaxwired · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 May 2010, 06:04 pm »

Quote from: Nuance on 23 May 2010, 05:59 pm

No, not all amps sound the same. Personally I think this thread is meant for the sole purpose of starting a fight.

You know what I find absurd? Someone that puts a link in their signature and then bashes someone for asking their opinion on the link topic.

Nuance · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 May 2010, 06:05 pm »

When did I bash you?

Anyway, thanks for proving my point.

satfrat · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 May 2010, 06:32 pm »

Quote from: jaxwired on 23 May 2010, 12:46 pm

Whatever...

I'm just looking for discussion on the topic.

IF you were looking to start a discussion, why did you call out Nuance by name with a question, then provide an answer that would make any other answer look absurb,,, according to you???

My opinion, you won't want to know cuz you're not gonna like it!

Good form Nuance for holding back.

Cheers,
Robin

jaxwired · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 May 2010, 07:22 pm »

This is ridiculous. I called Nuance by name because it's his signature that has the link.

Posting my opinion on the end was an after thought. I figured people could post there opinions and I would just go first. I don't see how my opinion limits other's from posting their opinions. If I didn't want an open discussion I would not have asked the question. Seeing the link Nuance had, I simply was curious what his position was. I assumed someone with that link in their sig would have an opinion on the subject and would be interested in discussing it. Why else would he have the link in his signature?

TJHUB · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 May 2010, 07:32 pm »

This thread got defensive unnecessarily in my opinion. Nuance is a friend of mine and not once did I feel I the need to defend him or his opinions. Some good even came of it, so not all will be a loss if everyone brings it down a notch or two.

Thanks for the link R Swerdlow. It was an interesting read.

jaxwired · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 May 2010, 07:38 pm »

Quote from: TJHUB on 23 May 2010, 07:32 pm

Thanks for the link R Swerdlow. It was an interesting read.

Agreed. Excellent!

jaxwired · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 May 2010, 07:47 pm »

Quote from: Nuance on 23 May 2010, 05:59 pm

This is where pysco-acoustics come into play, and if you haven't educated yourself with that side of the equation, your argument holds no ground here. Feel free to disagree and flame me, but this is my opinion based on my experiences (subjective) and the objective (scientific) side of audio. Without both this is just an opinionated hobby.

My opinion is that audiophiles think they hear equipment differences all the time that are phantom. Again, just my opinion, but I'm firmly convinced that this is true. I also strongly support scientific data and enjoy reading what is available on the subject. With that said, I also strongly believe that science does not currently know how to capture all that the brain captures when listening to music. I do believe that in many cases, people are correct regarding the differences they hear. It's not always self delusion and placebo effect. I think there's some truth on both sides of the issue.

groovybassist · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 May 2010, 08:42 pm »

I guess I don't see anything wrong with an opinionated hobby. As long as any differences I hear are meaningful to me, and I'm not forcing my thoughts or opinions on others, then what's the harm? Since every human is an imperfect being, doesn't it make sense that we'd all hear things differently? The fact that a machine can analyze a piece of electronics, and deem it as perfectly performing its duty, doesn't mean squat to me if I don't like the sound of it as it perfectly performs its duty. I'm not saying I'm a fan of gross colorations, but we're all kidding ourselves if we're unable to admit we do or don't like how a piece of gear sounds based on our physiology and personal biases.