[Flick]

What kind of wire are you guys/gals using in the kits? Mine is currently twisted 18 gauge copper enamel magnet wire. I was considering 30 guage silver wire twisted, braided, or wrapped (barber pole style) around teflon tubing. Anything to increase bandwidth for the Jordans.

John

[andyr]

Hi, John,

I suggest you should adopt two diffeent styles of construction - for internal wiring and for ICs.

I use the "barber's pole" method you mentioned for ICs, 'xept I use 26awg solid-core teflon-coated Cu wire ... I think 18awg is too thick for ICs.  Then I put a braided shield over the lot and some expandable plastic braid over that.

The reason why you use the teflon tube core is to lower capacitance - for the short runs inside an amp, this is not a problem so I just twist the two wires instead.

Regards,

Andy

[Carlman]

Internally I'm using Auric 18ga connection wire on all higher current leads such as binding posts... I think I have some 21 ga somewhere else but, I can't remember where.  The 18ga is rated to 500 volts so, I know it's enough.  However, using this wire gave me much better bass detail than I had with the standard cable Hugh shipped with the kit.

I'm using the Hugh-supplied CAT5 cable for the input signal.  It works fine, haven't experimented with replacing it because I doubt it would make an improvement.. but, maybe it would?

I'm also using Audience cable on the rest of my system.... I didn't make, just bought it: www.audience-av.com.  

Thin is OK as long as it's good copper.  The Auric cable is strands..

[andyr]

Internally I'm using Auric 18ga connection wire on all higher current leads such as binding posts... I think I have some 21 ga somewhere else but, I can't remember where.  ...

aaah, yes, Carlman, I was only talking about signal wiring.  yes you need thicker for high current wiring - ie. power supplies and speaker wires ... different subject!

Regards,

Andy

[Flick]

Andy,

18 gauge is hard to work with when attaching to the boards . I like the combination idea. It makes perfectly good sense to me. I'm leaning toward the braiding scheme at the moment for internal connections. This option gives the advantage of having a shielding wire in the mix. A bit more expensive when using silver.

Carlman,

Some of the cables your link leads to cost way more then my entire system!

Did anyone try silver internal/external signal interconnects with Hugh's kits? Sonic differences?

Thanks.

John

[Malcolm Fear]

If you search back through the "Aspen" forum, you will find a lot of stuff on Teflon coated CAT 5, 4 strand for signal, 8 strand for speaker signal.

[fred]

Did anyone try silver internal/external signal interconnects with Hugh's kits? Sonic differences?

I stumbled across a very good deal on some 23AWG silver wire (supposedly 5 9's), so I bought some and installed it in my GK-1 on the output side.  My perception was of slightly better top end and slightly better dynamics.  Buy nothing due to my account, because the placebo effect is a very likely cause.

I did find there to be more of a noticeable difference between using stranded copper coax and using the Cat-5 (Cat-5 was better), although even here the difference wasn't great.

If you have an AKSA, you're better off saving for the Nirvana plus upgrade than buying silver.  When Hugh sells an upgrade, I promise you'll hear a positive, non-placebo, difference.

[SamL]

Hi Malcolm,

Are you using cat5 inside your AKSA? I plan to use Cat5 for the signal but not sure if I can use them between psu and aksa pcb. If you do, how many strand did you use?
I'm feeling a bit guilty for spending all the money on expensive caps and resistors and none on cable.

Sam

[Flick]

If you have an AKSA, you're better off saving for the Nirvana plus upgrade than buying silver. When Hugh sells an upgrade, I promise you'll hear a positive, non-placebo, difference.

Fred,

  I do have the AKSA with Nirvana upgrade and your statement above is so true.  Boy! I do know when my TLP goes Nirvana the result will show a need to upgrade the clock in the AMC CD8b then probably the need to upgrade the 18gauge Cu twisted speaker wires...on and on   . I just might go to 26 guage Cu in the case for now and wait after all the above to try the silver route inside.

Malcolm,

I got some reading to do  

Thanks guys.

John

[Malcolm Fear]

Hi Sam
I use braided four strand CAT 5 for signals and braided 8 strand for speaker cables. This is inside and outside the box.
For CD, I have interconnects poking out the back of the GK-1, with Eichmanns on one end, the other end are soldered to the input switch inside the GK-1. Gets rid of a pair of RCA plugs, sockets and solder joints.
On the output side I have the same thing. Interconnects from the circuit board, through holes in the back of the GK-1, terminated in Eichmanns. These plug straight into the AKSA power amp.

I untwist all of the 4 pair in a length of CAT 5. This gives me 8 strands.
I loosely braid (as in plaiting girls hair), 2 strands of colour with 2 strands of white. The colours are for signal, the whites are for ground.

I do this twice for speaker leads, then twist the two sets of 4 leads together. I use 4 strand of colour for positive, the four whites are for negative.

[AKSA]

Folks,

Lots to comment on;  forgive me if I miss something.  

John, nothing wrong with magnet wire.  It sounds good, but if it's thick for carrying high currents from power supplies, it's fiddly to place, and although the enamel coating is tough I'm always leery about it shorting on something sharp.  I never have this concern with 15A multistrand copper hookup wire, as the vinyl coating is quite thick and this wire is easy to bend/place.  Andy's idea of putting teflon sleeve over magnet wire is good.  For signal wire, you can't go past teflon CAT5E;  it's cheap, I put in a bit with every kit now, and it sounds terrific.  And BTW John, I posted off your TLP Nirvana upgrade a couple hours ago;  it's in a padded bag, Air Mail, so you should have it about ten days with luck.  

Silver wire is OK if it is pure.  I have tried Tigadure British made silver coated copper wire with teflon insulation, and while this wire is marvellous in look and feel, the effect on the sound, even when used as power or earth interconnection, is horrific, adding a tizzy, bright gloss which is extremely fatigueing.  Don't use it, ever;  it's horrible.  This wire is used extensively in aero-space, and also sold at high price by by a company called Whitemore in California.  Theory;  this wire is silver coated copper to a thickness of 40 microns, and developed for maximum current flow per unit mass with very stringent environmental demands, like the intense temperature and g-force extremes of space travel.  I have a notion that the amalgam of silver on copper creates diodic interfaces which really mess up audio signals.  Don't do it;  looks like heaven, sounds like hell........

Sam, don't feel guilty about spending good money on resistors and caps and not much on wire.  I'd say you've got it right, as wire is presently a fad and a fashion in audio and the price has risen commensurately.

As a general principle, and of course I should say YMMV, an upgrade needs to address component choices first, operating point second, and maybe wire last of all.  I tend to tune everything by ear;  most of my time goes into component choice and operating point once the topology/schematic has been figured out.  I feel that the design is only mature when as many components as possible have been removed from the circuit.  I was disappointed with the GK1 because there are so many caps in the front end;  but Darl and I tried very hard to remove them, and every excision resulted in a one-legged presentation, so we HAD to put 'em back in!  I am absolutely convinced that the best sonics come with elegant minimalism;  generally I have noticed that this applies across all technologies.  Complexity is easy, and often indicates incomplete or even flawed R&D.  Simplicity, production repeatability, careful component selection results in higher reliability and lower cost and is the essence of good design.

Cheers,

Hugh

[PSP]

Hugh,
Your comment about diode-like behavior from grain boundaries in silver/copper/possible alloys systems is very interesting.  In the absence of some mechanism that could generate higher frequency components from 60Hz line voltage, wire-specific behavior (particularly in the 3 inch runs one has in an AKSA) would be a total mystery.

I can at least make a rational argument (and have heard) differences between good and bad (in my system) signal wire, but I'll be damned if I can understand what could possibly happen at 50 or 60Hz.

So for power runs I use 14-16 awg stranded copper, PVC coated, and as short as possible.  I have so many higher priorities in my audio life that tweaking power runs between the caps and AKSA amp boards will have to wait, perhaps for a few decades.

I suppose I should get my flame suit on....

Peter

[Flick]

Peter, no need for a flame suit, my breath only echoes your statement. I never even thought about power wire in the AKSA when starting this thread. I suppose it makes a difference on the size/gauge when it comes to power draw for those really low bass notes. I have no planes on changing these wires in the AKSA. My only concern is the signal wire.

Hugh, I'm in total compliance with you concerning silver coated copper wire. Learned the hard way long ago. Used 250' Carol silver coated 14 gauge in the HT. Not very good electronics (JVC) driving this system, but I noticed a difference in the sound as you described and can only think how your ears were tortured when using those silver wires with the AKSA! Guess all the cheap caps in that JVC production unit hide the real horrors of that cable because it is still laced thru the walls playing the latest cinema movies  

I was looking at this supplier for the pure silver teflon coated wire http://www.homegrownaudio.com/diy_silverwire.html.

After installing the TLP Nirvana upgrade and silver or copper (still on the fence with this one) internal wiring, the plan is to install the following clock in the CD player http://www.diyhifisupply.com/parts/cd_xo_clock.html.

Then listen, think, listen, etc. Probably new speaker wires and interconnects will follow. We just don't know until we try, hey!

One point of interest about the distortion trail with vocals noted before. I was playing Dire Straits, "Money for Nothing" last night and noticed a worsening said condition in the vocal track. I tried a different CD by Dire Strait's with the same song. Vocals were clear with the new CD in! So, I took a closer look at the first CD and found that someone must have used one of those CD cleaners with solvent. Many upon many little tiny swirls are embedded on the surface of the disk. I bought this disk used at one of those resale shops many years ago. Never heard this problem before the introduction of the Jordans to the system.

What awaits when the latest tweeks are done

No worry, I love every sonic improving minute

Thanks Hugh for the quick shipment.

John

[TG]

Silver wire is OK if it is pure. I have tried Tigadure British made silver coated copper wire with teflon insulation, and while this wire is marvellous in look and feel, the effect on the sound, even when used as power or earth interconnection, is horrific, adding a tizzy, bright gloss which is extremely fatigueing. Don't use it, ever; it's horrible ... looks like heaven, sounds like hell

I couldn't agree more about the silver on copper.  Great stuff to use - bends nicely to chassis contours, can be laid neatly around valve sockets, sheath resists high soldering temperatures, etc. - but a nightmare to listen to.  How ironic.  I once built a whole preamp using this stuff and it sounded like poo.  

FWIW if anyone is interested in playing with pure silver wiring your local jewellry supplier (see Yellow Pages) will sell round section "fine" silver (99.9% pure) in diameters varying from .15mm to 1.5mm.  Silver is sold by weight and is surprisingly inexpensive - MUCH less so than esoteric audio cables.  For a dielectric, Farnell and RS Components both sell teflon sheath of varying internal diameter (.5 and .8 are the most common) in 5, 10 and 20 metre lengths for about 50c/metre.  I find 1.5mm works great for busses and power, and .5mm is excellent for signal path.

I have used the much lauded "5 nines" silver wire and whilst it sounds great to be honest I don't think I can hear any difference between it and "3 nines" fine silver.

Cheers

[Jens]

I beg to differ - on the problems with silver plated copper wire.

All my interconnects are made with this configuration, and they sound great - without any of the problems stated in this thread.

When I visited Hugh in November I brought along one of these interconnects, which we swapped for the one he was using between CD and preamp. Hugh and I had no problems in agreeing that my interconnect was clearly better than the one Hugh used (I don't remember what brand that was). We could not hear any ill effects - on the contrary.

I also brought my interconnect along to Malcolm's place, where we swapped it for the CAT5 braid that Mal was using. There were differences between the cables - and differences in opinion between the people attending, but both cables sounded good, and there were no comments on "silvery" sound for my silver plated interconnect  (I don't think I told anyone it was actually silver plated copper).

When Peter (PSP) visited me last year we also listened to this same interconnect, indeed in several places in the system. Peter did not make any comments on "silver on copper" sound. In fact, I think he was quite awed about the sound (correct me if I am taking my mouth too full, Peter!).

All of the above just goes to say that silver plated copper is not just silver plated copper - there are differences. Unfortunately, I do not have any technical details about my interconnect, expected that it consists of two coarsely stranded, silver plater copper wires, each covered by teflon. The whole thing has a braided shield, also made of silver plated copper. The whole thing is covered in some kind of plastic, but I don't think it's PVC. I have used this cable both with and without the braided shield (pseudo-balanced).

Cheers,

[AKSA]

Ah well,

All I can say is that I don't recall all the details, my memory is not wonderful!  

However, this is not something I will argue with, as clearly there is egg on my face.  I'm sure Jens is quite right, but certainly this conflicts with other experience I've had.  It just goes to show that nothing should be taken for granted!  

Cheers,

Hugh

[Flick]

Not to argue or be brandish, the problem with this whole AKSA Hi-fi scene is we all use different front end equipment and speakers. To boot, we all use different internal wiring, interconnects, and speaker wire; so, as a result, different sound will be achieved which in turn creates different opinions.

My DAC has a triode tube collector attached to a drop resistor couple with a film cap feeding the TLP. The signal feeding this simple amplification scheme is taken right off of pin #6 on the PCM63P-K 20 bit DAC chip utilizing a L-pad to the grid of the tube.

The other end of the system via wires is just the Jordan single drivers coupled in a TL cabinet. IMO, the arrangement is very stark and compliments Hugh's already simple design.

Any change in the signal path has been noticed by me easily.

Tried 12 gauge stranded Speaker King wire with fuzzy results.

Tried single 14 gauge tightly twisted enameled coated speaker connections. Sound was plain non-involving --flat..fat.

Tried coax in the AKSA internal connections. Again flat results.

I have not tried the silver/copper wires in this system because of past experience and what others have said about this type of wire in a minimalist arrangement.

All of this was at different stages in system progress. I just used the AMC internal DAC at one point, different speakers at another, and TLP'less at another. Not very scientific but very subjective.

Now, after all that, silver leads me to think the signal will become bright as fed to the Jordans. This could help brighten the smooth highend that the single driver produces now.

Tone controls, tone controls is all, really

Sooooooo! Take it for what its worth  

Cheers!

John

[Flick]

Not to argue or be brandish, the problem with this whole AKSA Hi-fi scene is we all use different front end equipment and speakers. To boot, we all use different internal wiring, interconnects, and speaker wire; so, as a result, different sound will be achieved which in turn creates different opinions.

My DAC has a triode tube collector attached to a drop resistor couple with a film cap feeding the TLP. The signal feeding this simple amplification scheme is taken right off of pin #6 on the PCM63P-K 20 bit DAC chip utilizing a L-pad to the grid of the tube.

The other end of the system via wires is just the Jordan single drivers coupled in a TL cabinet. IMO, the arrangement is very stark and compliments Hugh's already simple design.

Any change in the signal path has been noticed by me easily.

Tried 12 gauge stranded Speaker King wire with fuzzy results.

Tried single 14 gauge tightly twisted enameled coated speaker connections. Sound was plain non-involving --flat..fat.

Tried coax in the AKSA internal connections. Again flat results.

I have not tried the silver/copper wires in this system because of past experience and what others have said about this type of wire in a minimalist arrangement.

All of this was at different stages in system progress. I just used the AMC internal DAC at one point, different speakers at another, and TLP'less at another. Not very scientific but very subjective.

Now, after all that, silver leads me to think the signal will become bright as fed to the Jordans. This could help brighten the smooth highend that the single driver produces now.

Tone controls, tone controls is all, really

Sooooooo! Take it for what its worth  

Cheers!

John

[Flick]

Not to argue or be brandish, the problem with this whole AKSA Hi-fi scene is we all use different front end equipment and speakers. To boot, we all use different internal wiring, interconnects, and speaker wire; so, as a result, different sound will be achieved which in turn creates different opinions.

My DAC has a triode tube collector attached to a drop resistor couple with a film cap feeding the TLP. The signal feeding this simple amplification scheme is taken right off of pin #6 on the PCM63P-K 20 bit DAC chip utilizing a L-pad to the grid of the tube.

The other end of the system via wires is just the Jordan single drivers coupled in a TL cabinet. IMO, the arrangement is very stark and compliments Hugh's already simple design.

Any change in the signal path has been noticed by me easily.

Tried 12 gauge stranded Speaker King wire with fuzzy results.

Tried single 14 gauge tightly twisted enameled coated speaker connections. Sound was plain non-involving --flat..fat.

Tried coax in the AKSA internal connections. Again flat results.

I have not tried the silver/copper wires in this system because of past experience and what others have said about this type of wire in a minimalist arrangement.

All of this was at different stages in system progress. I just used the AMC internal DAC at one point, different speakers at another, and TLP'less at another. Not very scientific but very subjective.

Now, after all that, silver leads me to think the signal will become bright as fed to the Jordans. This could help brighten the smooth highend that the single driver produces now.

Tone controls, tone controls is all, really

Sooooooo! Take it for what its worth  

Cheers!

John

[Flick]

Hit enter too many times with "Site not responding" page returned.

My apologies.    

John