[Kinger]

Hey all,

Something strange happened last night during a listening session and I'm wondering if you guys can help me.

First, a little about my room.  It's a typical untreated family room that measures 15' wide by 17' foot long and has 9' celings.  The left side of the room opens to our kitchen so there really are not any boundaries on that side of the room.  The right side of the room has a fireplace at the first reflection point. (unfortunately)  When the speakers are pulled out from the wall for critical listening sessions, they are located about 10 feet from the listening position and have about an 8 foot spread.  Here are a few pictures and a graph showing the size of the room and things in it........

















As you can see in the last picture, my Salk Songtowers are normally located about 12" off the back wall just to keep them out of the way of my kids and to keep the WAF factor higher.  However, when my wife and kids are away for a few hours and I have the house to myself, I pull the speakers out away from the wall as it seems to improve bass response.

Now for the strange part.  Last night was one of those rare nights where I had the house to myself and so I had a friend who is also into audio come over for a listening session.  We pulled both speakers away from the wall bit by bit to try and obtain the best bass response from them and we settled on about 30" from the back wall.  (The speakers are still new to this room and I've been playing around with where to get the best sound out of them.)  As we were doing this, we were also listening to see how the soundstage and imaging were affected by the placement.  As I had just been to AKFest last week and had the opportunity to listen to the Roger Waters Amused to Death album (which I feel has the ability to create a large soundstage and image), I knew that I was not getting the appropriate soundstage with both speakers at 30" from the wall no matter what type of toe in I tried.  It just seemed like the soundstage was completely trapped between the speakers and I know on this recording that many sounds should be well outside of the left speaker at times.  At the time, my friend and I thought it might be the distance from the back wall so I asked him to move the speakers back a bit so that maybe this would improve.  He started with the left speaker and pulled it back about 3".  WHAM!!!  All of a sudden, I had a HUGE soundstage with depth (in all of my listening sessions before with the speakers being at equal lengths from the back wall I never really had much soundstage depth) and the imaging was very very precise.  As soon as he moved the right speaker back the same 3" to match the left, the soundstage and imaging was back to what it was before.

Why would this be?  Is there something about my room that would lend itself to this particular setup?  Needless to say, if it's what it takes to get into the magical sweet spot for listening I'll live with it, but it just seems odd that in order to create that magic spot the right speaker has to be about 3" inches further out than the left.  Anyone else ever experience this?

[bpape]

Is everything else equal - specifically toe in?

I've seen times when something like this can happen with one open side and 1 tight side.  What could be part of the issue is that the left speaker being farther back is now having it's reflections get to you a little later, more closely matching the longer reflections on the other side.  While they're still not equal, you may have found that compromise spot where it's helping.

Bryan

[Kinger]

Hey Bryan,

Yep, same toe in.

As you know, I've been considering adding a bass pillar to that right corner of the room behind the right speaker.  Would that addition help things any or does it have more to do with the reflections coming off that right speaker hitting that wall with the fireplace?

[bpape]

I believe this particular issue is likely more related to the reflections from the side wall. 

Bryan

[Kinger]

So would the 242's on stands in front of the fireplace help this particular issue?  Don't know why it bothers me so much.  Just like stuff being equal I guess   With that said though......the sound out of this particular speaker placement blew me away last night.  MUCH MUCH MUCH better than anything I had heard out of this room before so I guess that's a good thing.

[bpape]

Probably need 2 of them.  1 before the fireplace and 1 at it depending on exactly where the reflections fall.

Bryan

[max190]

Kinger,
When you did your test were the curtains open or closed behind LP ?

[Kinger]

Definitely closed.  Those curtains are rarely opened other than nice days when we want the windows open.  I just had them open on that particular day so folks knew how large the window area was behind the couch.

[max190]

Is your wife into listening to music?
Instead of having to wait for her and the kids to be gone to do some serious listening, why not ask her to help you.

IMO you need to remove some of the room interference by getting more intimate with your spkrs. If your have long enough spkr cables then I would pull them even further out into the room and a little closer together plus pull your LP into the room. The more space behind you the better.

Temp remove your spkr grills, coffee table, blue stripe ottoman, and cover your TV with a blanket.

Now do some listening...

[stvnharr]

Hey all,

He started with the left speaker and pulled it back about 3".  WHAM!!!  All of a sudden, I had a HUGE soundstage with depth (in all of my listening sessions before with the speakers being at equal lengths from the back wall I never really had much soundstage depth) and the imaging was very very precise.  As soon as he moved the right speaker back the same 3" to match the left, the soundstage and imaging was back to what it was before.

Why would this be?  Is there something about my room that would lend itself to this particular setup?  Needless to say, if it's what it takes to get into the magical sweet spot for listening I'll live with it, but it just seems odd that in order to create that magic spot the right speaker has to be about 3" inches further out than the left.  Anyone else ever experience this?

Well, hopefully nobody will jump all over me for posting this in response to the above observation. But, have you ever heard of Master Set?
You've got a room situation where the right speaker has a lot more boundary reinforcement and will project a lot more sound pressure into the room space.  The left speaker has a far larger space to pressurize, with the open room space, and the only way that it can compensate for this is to be closer to the wall behind the speaker.  This will somewhat equalize the amount of sound each speaker will put into the room.
If you like the sound with the 3 inch offset, well, go with it.

Most folks wrongly believe that speakers should be equidistant out into the room from the wall behind them. This is not so, as you've just found out. Trust your ears, not your tape measure.

[Kinger]

Thanks for the continued responses guys.

Steve - Unfortunately, my wife is more of a "background" listener when it comes to music.  She's not one to just sit and listen to a CD or songs unfortunately.  As for pulling out the speakers and moving the LP closer.......isn't that kinda what I did to find that awesome soundstage or are you suggesting moving things even closer together?

stvnharr - In scanning through this circle, I've seen mentions of the master set, but really have not tried it yet.  Possibly on my next "home alone" session   Your explanation of why the 3" forward on the right speaker sounding better makes sense.  Just looked kinda funny seeing one speaker out further from the other when viewing the setup from the side.  The sound was absolutely fantastic though so I'd feel kinda silly not trying it again.

[jimdgoulding]

Well, hopefully nobody will jump all over me for posting this in response to the above observation. But, have you ever heard of Master Set?
You've got a room situation where the right speaker has a lot more boundary reinforcement and will project a lot more sound pressure into the room space.  The left speaker has a far larger space to pressurize, with the open room space, and the only way that it can compensate for this is to be closer to the wall behind the speaker.  This will somewhat equalize the amount of sound each speaker will put into the room.
If you like the sound with the 3 inch offset, well, go with it.

Most folks wrongly believe that speakers should be equadistant out into the room from the wall behind them. This is not so, as you've just found out. Trust your ears, not your tape measure.

It is not wrong to believe that speakers should be equidistant.  Stvnharr is trippin.  Both speakers very often are producing a single instrument or instruments simultaneously.  The only time that changes is when an instrument is placed in the extreme left or right speaker.  To have accurate stereo reproduction both channels need to be heard simultaneously.  One should not be different in time or be reinforced more strongly than the other.  Max190 is correct on all counts.  Your speakers will image better, allow for depth of field when it is in a recording, and be more neutral over the spectrum if you tighten your triangle and make it equilateral with your seat.  Waveforms are doubling over in the right side of your room because of the intersection of your walls. 

It would appear that your room is multi purpose.  When you listen to music and if you listen solo, you could move in an occasional chair in front of your sofa (you could do what Max suggested also), bring your speakers out, and in if need be, to make an equilateral triangle with your seat.  Moving your entire triangle to the left puts your right speaker further away from that intersection.  Too close could cause a shift in balance particularly in your case because the space to your left is open.  And move your coffee table, etc., out of the picture (put it back when listening to music is not your priority). 

[stvnharr]

Thanks for the continued responses guys.

stvnharr - In scanning through this circle, I've seen mentions of the master set, but really have not tried it yet.  Possibly on my next "home alone" session   Your explanation of why the 3" forward on the right speaker sounding better makes sense.  Just looked kinda funny seeing one speaker out further from the other when viewing the setup from the side.  The sound was absolutely fantastic though so I'd feel kinda silly not trying it again.

When the sound is fantastic you can get used to the "new look". Just remember to trust your ears.
Master Set can get quite involved, no need to really go there unless you have a lot of time and/or interest. But what you found with the one speaker in closer to the rear wall kind of gives you an idea of what can be had and heard.

[jimdgoulding]

Which begats the question to me . . what sound?  The sound of popular music recordings made in a studio with all kinds of EQ and electronic manipulation?  Or, the sound of classical or acoustic music recorded with regard for time and space realism?  That is not to say that positively all are.  Speaker placement, IMO, should serve all our recordings equally as much as possible unless you want to be changing it a lot.  Near wall placement adds volume to sound and imagery which can be subjectively good for some music (believe I've heard some), but not all.  A lot of speaker designers have gone to great lengths to preserve and deliver what's in a recording.  While near wall placement may give our music more sensation, to the purist, I submit, it will compromise too many things, too much of the time.

Mentioned was "Amused to Death".  That is an ambiosonic recording.  Madonna has used this technology, too.  It may need perpendicular walls to do its thing, I don't really know.  But, I submit it is one a person should leave on the shelf when positioning their speakers.

[Kinger]

Hmmm guess what I'm learning from all this is that I need to play around with speaker positioning a bit more.  The goal is to find the spot that works best and write it down so it can be repeated quickly for those times where I can listen without interruption.

[Quiet Earth]

Jim,
I think it's healthy to admit that all recordings are made differently and that they are indeed recordings, not live music in some sort of textbook space and time. However, if you really believe this philosophy (and I certainly do), then you wouldn't worry too much about being a purist, since there is no real reference to be pure to. Be true to your personal preference, and accept the rules as academic guidelines.

Kinger has the right idea to experiment and listen. Keep trying and keep learning Kinger, but stop and enjoy it when you find the spot that sounds best to you. They're your recordings, and your room.

A lot of speaker designers have gone to great lengths to preserve and deliver what's in a recording.

Yes, but not all designers use the same methods to achieve good sound. My speakers actually came with printed instructions to place them as close to the side and rear walls as possible. I'll be darned if that's not where they sound their very best. And yes, for all recordings.

Pretty cool, huh? 

[max190]

Hmmm guess what I'm learning from all this is that I need to play around with speaker positioning a bit more.  The goal is to find the spot that works best and write it down so it can be repeated quickly for those times where I can listen without interruption.

Your wife won't mind if you put down some blue painters tape 

[Duke]

He started with the left speaker and pulled it back about 3".  WHAM!!!  All of a sudden, I had a HUGE soundstage with depth....

Why would this be? 

It is the distance to your ears that is critical, not the distance of the speakers to the wall.  I suspect that when he moved the left speaker, he corrected the distance to your ears.

[John Casler]

I believe this particular issue is likely more related to the reflections from the side wall. 

Bryan

Your reference album (AMUSED TO DEATH) is recorded in Q-SOUND and has a VERY precise and delicate phasing engineered into the sound to create the placement and soundstage of all the sonics.

In a completely balanced room (boundary wise) you would need to be sitting "in the sweet spot" exactly in between  and equidistant from each speaker for the best effect.

However, the room related reflective distortions (unbalanced by the right side) infect the whole right side with timing and arrival errors and phase issues from the greater amount of reflected sound.

This is the problem(s)

It might be less noticable with non-Q-SOUND albums, but it will always affect the balance.

Additionally you have alot of highly reflective surfaces and a farfield listening position.  Even the wooden coffee table is really causing a lot of distortion.  You might find placing the soft OTTOMAN in its place will do wonders for the sound.

You might also find it a lot of fun to just take a chair (when you want to do some serious listening) and place it "in front" of where that coffee table is and listen nearfield to that same album.  If you are 6-7 feet from your speakers and converge them in a bit, you may find a whole new level of listening.

For HT, the imbalance will likely be less obtrusive and sitting on the couch should be NBD (no big deal), but if you want to do some serious listening, try a little nearfield.

Can't say it will help the reflections from that right wall though.

[Kinger]

Thanks again for all the great posts guys.  Lots of good ideas.  When it comes to "dedicated" listening, I usually throw blankets over the TV, coffee table and marble fireplace hearth trying to cut down on those hard surfaces.  As for the nearfield listening and an equidistant triangle, I think I'm getting closer.  Probably could do an 8.5 foot spread with the speakers 2 feet or more out from the back wall with the couch pulled a foot off the back wall.  That should get me pretty close.........