Please help a tube newb

Jaketh · « **on:** 8 May 2010, 02:46 am »

Hi All, Greeting from a new Circle member and a future tube owner (i think)

I currently have a paradigm studio 100 v4 setup running through a denon 2807 AVR using an emotiva xpa5 for power. My source is lossless files from my computer.

I am looking to soften the harshness I get from my system and have started exploring the tube world to bypass my denon and soften up my speakers/amp. Am thinking a preamp like the rogue audio perseus may fit the bill (HT bypass and I can use a sub). Am I on the right track, will this help?

Secondly, any DAC recommendations if I am headed in the right direction? Do I need to get a tube DAC too to keep/enhance the tube flavor?

FYI - my current tube experience is limited to auditioning several rogue audio setups with Harbeth speakers.....it was incredible and got me hooked, but I dont know how much was the speakers vs the tubes...

Thanks for helping me with my rambling situation.

K Shep · « **Reply #1 on:** 8 May 2010, 04:45 am »

Welcome to AC.

I think you're on the right track looking at a tube preamp. Stick with your XPA and move towards a DAC that fits well with you computer front end. Tube DACs I would recommend are Wavelength and Music Hall.

honesthoff · « **Reply #2 on:** 8 May 2010, 05:22 am »

Check out octal tube-based preamps first. 12xxx mini-valves were way too right of center for me. I have no experience with valve dac's or players.

JakeJ · « **Reply #3 on:** 8 May 2010, 07:22 am »

Welocme to AC and the Tube-O-Phile Circle,

Agreed with K Shep and honesthoff that you should take it one step at a time. Preamp first and listen for a while to get the sound well founded in your mind. I have some experience with Paradigm speakers and in certain equipment cominations they can get a little hot up top. Best of luck on your search.

honesthoff,

Please explain "12xxx mini-valves were way too right of center for me." You statement seems a bit ambiguous to me.

Thanks,
JakeJ

Jaketh · « **Reply #4 on:** 8 May 2010, 12:41 pm »

Thanks all; I found a Music Hall dealer nearby so I'm going to go check out the 25.2 DAC. Perhaps that first running into my Denon ext-in inputs first then check out the Perseus or something like that later.

I'll keep ya posted!

Jaketh · « **Reply #5 on:** 8 May 2010, 11:55 pm »

Sadly, no 25.2 DAC was in stock. The waiting is the hardest part.

Jon L · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 May 2010, 12:58 am »

Quote from: Jaketh on 8 May 2010, 02:46 am

I currently have a paradigm studio 100 v4 setup running through a denon 2807 AVR using an emotiva xpa5 for power. My source is lossless files from my computer.

I am looking to soften the harshness I get from my system and have started exploring the tube world to bypass my denon and soften up my speakers/amp.

Going with "tubes" to soften up a system like yours is a mistake IMHO. I'll bet you I could change few small things to tune it to your liking, e.g. digital cable, interconnect, speaker cable, footers, power cable/conditioner.

I've been a die-hard tube lover all my life, but contemplating tubes as a band-aid like this never leads to any long-lasting satisfaction IME.

If I were you, I would focus more on getting a good DAC with a decent preamp stage and bypass your Denon or DAC with a decent high-value SS preamp, such as IRD Purist or Odyssey Tempest.

Jaketh · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 May 2010, 01:10 am »

thanks for the feedback; so are you saying the Denon is the problem? That's how I interpret the advice, so please correct me as needed.

Steve · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 May 2010, 02:41 am »

Quote from: Jaketh on 9 May 2010, 01:10 am

thanks for the feedback; so are you saying the Denon is the problem? That's how I interpret the advice, so please correct me as needed.

I agree with Jon L. Some simple steps could definitely help, and one does not need to use octal tubes to limit the high frequency response. It is better to solve the problem rather than bandage it.

Cheers.

Jaketh · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 May 2010, 03:06 am »

So, to make this actionable; what does this mean? Tell me where to send my money for improvements and my credit card company will oblige.

I want my ears to stop bleeding and feel the love.

Thanks!

MaxCast · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 May 2010, 03:26 am »

I'd change the speakers.

Mariusz · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 May 2010, 03:45 am »

Do not rush - slow down (or it will cost you dearly)
Find local audiophile club. (get active - listen to new gear in verious setups)
Visit local dealer. (he might be able to loan you desired component for the weekend. He might also be helpful in trouble shooting and advice)
Keep your options open.
If you are nor sure if something will work in your system but you don't have any way of auditioning it in your own system - buy used and buy what sells and keeps value.

Jaketh · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 May 2010, 04:23 am »

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately I've visited my local dealer numerous times and dont see an Ohio "Circle" (Akron area). My dealer sold me my current < optimal setup (except for the ID amp). They wont let me take stuff home for trial and do not seem to recognize that I have spent ~10K there...so....used is fine with me, but I want to make the right first step toward improvments. Sounds like both the denon and the speakers are prime suspects...i.e. I need to start all over.. Woof.

JakeJ · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 May 2010, 05:06 am »

Jaketh,

There is no instant answer here. The overall theme of advice here is to take it slow and one step at a time. I feel for you that you have spent ten large at this dealership and are getting the response that you are.

Is it possible to drive to a larger metropolitan area and seek a larger/better selection of dealers? I can relate to the limited dealer selection as there is only one local to me and they are pretty much dedicated to home theater.

My area is rural and I never thought for a minute there was any other audiophiles around. It took about two years to finally find one and he helped me network with more. One thing to try is a free Craigslist ad seeking other audio geeks and organize one or more get togethers. You may need to spearhead this yourself but the rewards are many.

Unfortunately I am not familiar with the sonic character of the Denon or the Emotiva but am with Paradigm. I think you can tame them but it will take diligence. Keep picking our brains and don't resign yet.

Best Regards,
JakeJ

Mariusz · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 May 2010, 05:53 am »

Some Internet vendors offer 30 days return guaranty.
10K is a lot of $ and your dealer should be out of business in few year at the most with such a shallow approach. (we would have build one for you at half the cost and no commission - besides, we LOVE to spend other peoples money

)

I think that you are ready for more serious HiFi, the one beyond recievers, "Home Theater" recommended list etc.

Try new source (CD player or DAC) or/and integrated amp (tube or hybrid)

You might also look into your room's acoustics.
Acoustic treatments should be high on your "to do list". (unless you have done that already)

P.S

personally , I would start fresh

Jaketh · « **Reply #15 on:** 9 May 2010, 11:38 am »

Thanks again gents. I actually love the idea of starting fresh, I just need to disguise it as small upgrades so my wife doesnt throw me out!

I have invested about 1k in acoustic treatments already so I have that "covered" (pardon the pun) and yes, it was a dramatic improvement.

I will probably focus on kicking out the denon and replacing that first, then, once it is apparent that my new pre/pro is being bottlenecked by my current speakers, I can make the case for some new ones! (Im envisioning a snake eating its tail here until it's all gone).

Mariusz · « **Reply #16 on:** 9 May 2010, 07:41 pm »

Tell as some more about you/your setup.
- room size and its purpose (HT/Media, living room etc.)
- your priorities (HT 1st/2ch 2nd or the other way around)
- budget is always important (doing it in steps is reasonable but keep in mind importance of speakers/amplification - IMO, the most important decision to make)

Jaketh · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 May 2010, 07:57 pm »

Thanks for the help here!

Room: approx 22' long 14' widex8.5' tall, it is a dedicated HT/Media room. I sit ~ 9.5' away from the speakers

Priorities: 70/30 2.1 channel/HT& Games. If I upgrade my 2 channel experience, there must be matching center/surrounds available for the HT part of the equation. Music source - lossless files via foobar -> Denon 2807 in Pure Direct mode

Budget: trying to figure this out....I have in the range of 5-7K as upper limit, but of course spending much less would be ideal...(the catalyst for me thinking of a Perseus &/or tube DAC solution)

This is my setup:

NagysAudio · « **Reply #18 on:** 9 May 2010, 08:37 pm »

I'm always surprised when people want to get a certain piece of equipment, with a specific character, in order to mask something unpleasant in their system. This is the absolute wrong way in putting together a high quality system. OP, you need to find out what's causing the harshness and get rid of that piece! NOT buy a very poor quality dull amplifier to mask it.

Most of the time (90%), the harshness comes from speakers. Most speaker manufacturers use theoretical values for crossovers and they always get the 3KHz-5KHz region wrong. So this is something that you should be looking at first.

But also, from my experience, the Denon receivers sound atrocious.

Mariusz · « **Reply #19 on:** 9 May 2010, 08:42 pm »

Look into (talk to) our own sponsor's offerings.
These guys are always helpful and offen times will go out of their way to please customer.

Preamp (stereo)
Dodd Audio Tube Buffer with HT pass-thru (I had Gary's full size preamp with HT feature and it was great in my multi-purpose setup)

Digital (stereo)
Eastern Electric DAC or cheaper Maverick Tube Magic D-1 DAC

Amp choice will have to do with your speakers choice but above two components can be integrated into your existing setup while you figure out the rest.