Optical better than HDMI at audio, isn't it??

eclein · « **on:** 7 May 2010, 12:52 am »

So being new and believing that HDMI cables are the way to go for both Video and Audio, I naturally connected all my components when possible via HDMI. I have since experimented with Toslink and Coax audio cables as the audio feed for my blu-ray (BDP-S360) and my PS3 and find them far and away a better listening experience.
My setup is 5.1 so I'm not missing anything using these connections and they are so much clearer, more detailed and with a lot more balls!
Is anyone else finding this to be true also??

jvc · « **Reply #1 on:** 18 May 2010, 11:48 pm »

Not me...........
I find Dolby TrueHD and dtsHD Master Audio, which isn't possible over digital coax or optical, to be much better than regular Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 5.1 surround. So, I find the audio to be better over HDMI.

low.pfile · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 May 2010, 12:15 am »

Like JVC says it hard to compare DTS HD/True HD via HDMI with Coax which cannot pass those formats/resolutions. Also hear a clear improvement with DTS HD/True HD over regular formats. Just using bluejeans F2 HDMI cables in a 5.1

wushuliu · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 May 2010, 02:04 am »

Maybe the quality of the HDMI cable was an issue? I have compared my bj HDMI cable with my arguably generic toslink and found no difference. I have seen the difference between really cheap HDMI and bj is why I wonder...

rudy99 · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 May 2010, 07:18 am »

Quote from: jvc on 18 May 2010, 11:48 pm

Not me...........
I find Dolby TrueHD and dtsHD Master Audio, which isn't possible over digital coax or optical, to be much better than regular Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 5.1 surround. So, I find the audio to be better over HDMI.

dts hd master audio what the? i always assumed dts could transfer via toslink no????? you sure bou that?

oh and what you think of tsi 200 vs rtiA3 polk bookshelf?

rudy99 · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 May 2010, 07:24 am »

Quote from: eclein on 7 May 2010, 12:52 am

So being new and believing that HDMI cables are the way to go for both Video and Audio, I naturally connected all my components when possible via HDMI. I have since experimented with Toslink and Coax audio cables as the audio feed for my blu-ray (BDP-S360) and my PS3 and find them far and away a better listening experience.
My setup is 5.1 so I'm not missing anything using these connections and they are so much clearer, more detailed and with a lot more balls!
Is anyone else finding this to be true also??

hi,, my setup has hdmi from my vaio laptop to my LG tv then out via toslink optical to my Nuforce hdo dac and then into my Lisa III head amp,
i always thought that hdmi and toslink werent distinguishable,, similar to toslink vs coaxial.
i cannot tell a difference. i use the aftermarket rca hdmi cables,, not superfancy but not cheap, sound very good imo.
id be willing to bet that toslink looks better on paper, but then again i am no hdmi expert.

but very good question, i always wonder how the conversion of the digital signal from hdmi then converted into toslink inside my tv is affected by this process.

cheers

low.pfile · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 May 2010, 08:55 am »

Quote from: rudy99 on 19 May 2010, 07:18 am

dts hd master audio what the? i always assumed dts could transfer via toslink no????? you sure bou that?

DTS can be transferred over Toslink, though not the HD or HD Master Audio flavors.

http://www.cepro.com/article/understanding_dts_hd_and_dts_hd_master_audio/K9

excerpt

"....DTS requires a Toslink Optical or S/PDIF coaxial connection between the DVD player and the surround processor.

....DTS-HD High Resolution Audio is supported by both HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 for connection between either a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player and a compatible surround processor.

.... DTS-HD Master Audio requires either an HDMI 1.3 connection from the player to a compatible surround processor or a player with a built-in processor, and analog patch cords going into the 7.1 pre-amp inputs on an AVR."

jvc · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 May 2010, 02:25 pm »

Quote from: rudy99 on 19 May 2010, 07:18 am

dts hd master audio what the? i always assumed dts could transfer via toslink no????? you sure bou that?

oh and what you think of tsi 200 vs rtiA3 polk bookshelf?

what low.pfile said. DTS - yes. DTS MA - no.
I've never heard any of the tsi or rti series Polks, so I can't really comment on them. I read at forums though that a lot of people like them, a lot. I love the LSi9s I have. Outstanding speakers.

Quote from: low.pfile

or a player with a built-in processor, and analog patch cords going into the 7.1 pre-amp inputs on an AVR."

I think you mean the 5.1/7.1 multi-channel analog inputs on an AVR, not the pre-outs. The pre-outs are for connecting an external amp, or maybe even powered speakers.

ctviggen · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 May 2010, 02:36 pm »

Quote from: jvc on 19 May 2010, 02:25 pm

I think you mean the 5.1/7.1 multi-channel analog inputs on an AVR, not the pre-outs. The pre-outs are for connecting an external amp, or maybe even powered speakers.

I think he's right.

low.pfile · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 May 2010, 02:51 pm »

Quote from: low.pfile on 19 May 2010, 08:55 am

http://www.cepro.com/article/understanding_dts_hd_and_dts_hd_master_audio/K9

excerpt:
".... DTS-HD Master Audio requires either an HDMI 1.3 connection from the player to a compatible surround processor or a player with a built-in processor, and analog patch cords going into the 7.1 pre-amp inputs on an AVR."

the above is a quote from the CEPRO.com link above it, I was just looking for corroborating info. And I think it says the same thing both jvc and ctviggen are, just with slightly differrent terminology: pre-amp inputs of processor = multi-channel inputs on AVR.

Mr Peabody · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 May 2010, 05:39 am »

Good explanations of DTS-MA and Dolby Tru-HD can be found at their respective websites as well. Both are said to deliver Lossless audio reproduction that equals the master soundtrack.

DTS and DD from DVD are compressed audio soundtracks to fit within DVD's storage capacity.

Neither optical or coaxial audio cables have the bandwidth to pass DTS-MA or Tru-HD so HDMI is a superior carrier.

It has been my experience there is a difference in HDMI cables. I had purchased a $40.00 Belkin HDMI thinking I went middle of the road. I had some serious buyers remorse when I bought my new processor, the sound quality was not what I heard in audition or read in reviews. As last resort I tried a Tributaries and the performance took quite an improvement. I'm not saying to buy any certain brand but it is an area to experiment. If I had known about Bluejeans back then I would have started there instead of buying the Belkin.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 May 2010, 11:46 am »

>> THIS << is a great link, with lots of pretty pictures, that has helped me understand "what's what" with regard to connection types and their capabilities.

Bob

eclein · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 May 2010, 12:07 pm »

I love pictures!!! Thanks BOB!!

bunnyma357 · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 May 2010, 12:29 pm »

One area where optical can work better is in avoiding ground loops. Since Cable Boxes and Satellite Receivers often have an RF input with a separate ground on the input signal, when they are connected to an AVR with HDMI it introduces a ground loop into the system and you end up with hum issues.

It can also be difficult to judge the different audio formats DD, DTS, DTS-MA, DD-HD, etc. - since they often have slightly different mixes, so the actual content is a little different, not just the signal path.

One other thing to check is to make sure that you have your BluRay player and AVR in sync on which should be doing the processing - with HDMI it is possible your BluRay player is doing the decoding and sending out PCM to the AVR, and you may prefer the decoding to be done by the AVR as it is with the Toslink cable.

Tons of variables in setting these systems up.

Jim C

ted_b · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 May 2010, 01:16 pm »

But to answer basic question....yes, you ARE missing a lot when not using either analog (many cables) or HDMI while watching BluRay. The advanced audio codecs (DTS HD MA, DolbyTRuHD, Linear PCM at 24/192) all provide up to 24/192 data in up to eight channels! The toslink or coax connections cannot send these advanced audio codecs at all. They will dumb down the audio to Dolby Digital or to DTS's core (called anything from DTS to NEO to DTS2496 to DTS HD...not HD MA) which is analogous to decent MP3 resolution...yes, even the poorly named "DTS2496" is really 256k MP3-type resolution in each of six or eight channels. It is true that toslink/coax can handle up to 24/96 PCM on DVD (like Neil Young Live at Massey Hall music discs, etc) but these BluRay movie soundtracks are either HiRez advanced audio or they dumb down to DD/DTS.

Now, in reality, you may not hear these differences for one of many reasons:
1) your player is set to bitstream (i.e let the receiver/processor do the work) but receiver or processor is not new enough to handle the new codecs (TrueHD or DTS HD MA) so all HDMI audio is getting you is the standard stuff anyway
2) your player is set to PCM (i.e let the player decode before sending) but your receiver has no 24/192 DACS to accept the decoded hirez signal, so it dumbs it down
3) your HDMI cable is older and not HDMI 1.3 capable, possibly causing dropouts or problems. Monoprice has good HDMI cables for less than $10.

Tell us a little more about your receiving end of the HDMI, and about the cable.

Good Hirez from BluRay is astonishingly good. Don't miss out if you can.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 May 2010, 01:48 pm »

Quote from: ted_b on 22 May 2010, 01:16 pm

3) your HDMI cable is older and not HDMI 1.3 capable,

Oh great.....

..... something new for me to worry about. Thanks Ted.

So how can we tell if a cable is 1.3 capable??

Bob

eclein · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 May 2010, 01:51 pm »

Bob--hahaha...I was just checking all my cable orders to see just that as you were posting--LOL!!!

ted_b · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 May 2010, 01:59 pm »

The cable is called "category 2" and should be labeled as such. I doubt your cable is the issue, but needed to say it as it is a variable. Most good standard speed HDMI cables will pass 1080p and high def audio, but there has been a new certification, and if ordering I'd go high speed.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 May 2010, 02:21 pm »

#1 The cable is called "category 2" and should be labeled as such.
-I can't recall ever seeing anything like "category 2" on any of my HDMI cables. Had I seen that I would have been asking you guys what that meant and if I should buy a larger number because it should be higher quality.

#2 I doubt your cable is the issue........
-Right there is the main problem with this hobby. I wasn't having an "issue", but now that the capabilities of the cable is in question, I am.

When I get home tonight I'll be checking my cables.
Bob

macrojack · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 May 2010, 03:21 pm »

#2 I doubt your cable is the issue........
-Right there is the main problem with this hobby. I wasn't having an "issue", but now that the capabilities of the cable is in question, I am.

You're right about that, Bob. I would argue that this entire hobby is predicated upon and perpetuated by concern over what we might be missing. When finally we all come to our senses and realize that we are the big variable in the whole process, not the software or hardware. We have the ability to decide that we are satisfied. Why, as a group, do we continue to fantasize about some "absolute sound"? All of us are securely established in the 99.99999 percentile of audio system performance. As you no doubt have noticed, most of the rest of the sane world can't begin to understand why we don't just relax and enjoy the music.