[werd]

At a given volume level both amps should be outputting the same watts.  A higher wattage amp should handle transients, peaks, and bass better.  Especially if the volume is such that the lower wattage amp is at its rated output.

Again according to Nagy you are dead wrong because this is basically what i said. If your amp can handle bass better than the entire sound stage will benefit. 

[BobM]

This is starting to look like another measurements vs ears debate.

[werd]

This is starting to look like another measurements vs ears debate.

Not at all. nothing to do with measurements or ear subjectiveness. I am not sure Paul was looking for an exercise in electronic bantering thats all. Just tried to keep it simple but we had one poster thats looking to lord over it.

[MaxCast]

Well according to Nagy you are dead wrong because thats pretty much what i said. Everything you said all ends up driving the devices into overheat which basically causes breakdown.

I don't think so.  Nagy was talking about what happens to an amp when the impedance drops to 1 ohm?  At rated output the amp will clip and fry a speaker or bottom it out.

[MaxCast]

Again according to Nagy you are dead wrong because this is basically what i said. If your amp can handle bass better than the entire sound stage will benefit. 

Obviously there are many factors to consider here and I read Nagy hitting on a one very important part, blowing the driver or the amp.

[NagysAudio]

OP's question is ridiculous to begin with. It's on the same level as when people claim that certain parts in a schematic are "IN" the signal path and some are "NOT" in the signal path.

But to answer his question completely is like this: The speaker's power is rated at a nominal impedance. In this case probably 8 ohms. Which is probably at 1000Hz. These particular speakers have been rated at 150 watts. The amp however can put out 500 watts at 8 ohms. So... Connect the speakers to the amp and run a 1000Hz tone. Raise the volume until the power reaches 150 watts. This is the max that the speakers can handle. The amp however can output more power (500 watts at 8 ohms), keep turning the volume up and the speakers will eventually fail.

[NagysAudio]

srb - I am the most knowledgeable expert in the universe. Prove me wrong and then we'll talk

[pjchappy]

Thanks, folks.  My question has been answered.

I'm not trying to get more volume, etc., just wanted to confirm it was "safe" to use a super high-powered amp on low-power "rated" speakers.  I know there are some technical aspects to it, but my generic question/concern has been answered.

I understand the issues of impedance changes, etc., too.  Am not concerned with that. 

To clear it up for others, I was simply wanting to confim this simplified premise:

An amplifier driving an 8 Ohm speaker (say, throughout it's entire frequency response) driven by a 1,000 Watt amp using brand X pre-amp will output the same power at 90dB volume as the same speakers driven by a 100 Watt amp (same "brand" specs/topology as the 1,000 Watt amp) using the same brand X pre-amp at 90dB volume.


Paul

[Spungey]

Wow! (from Nagys Audio site)...

Pranas Naguis:

  - Unlimited and unmatched knowledge in the science of electronic engineering
  - Associate Professor, Ph.D.
  - 11 year experience as a Project Engineer and Project Manager at the
    Kaunas Electronics Measuring Technics Scientific Research Institute in
    Kaunas, Lithuania
  - Developed new electronic measurement devices for electronic and military
    industry (precision high accuracy devices for measuring nanosecond impulse
    parameters, processing of measured data, automated test systems for
    testing of static and dynamic parameters of bipolar high frequency
    transistors, tunnel-diodes, thyristors, etc.)
  - Engineered state of the art components for Russia's military fighter jets,
    submarines, etc.

Unlimited and unmatched???

[pjchappy]

OP's question is ridiculous to begin with. It's on the same level as when people claim that certain parts in a schematic are "IN" the signal path and some are "NOT" in the signal path.

But to answer his question completely is like this: The speaker's power is rated at a nominal impedance. In this case probably 8 ohms. Which is probably at 1000Hz. These particular speakers have been rated at 150 watts. The amp however can put out 500 watts at 8 ohms. So... Connect the speakers to the amp and run a 1000Hz tone. Raise the volume until the power reaches 150 watts. This is the max that the speakers can handle. The amp however can output more power (500 watts at 8 ohms), keep turning the volume up and the speakers will eventually fail.

My question was not ridiculous. . . it just wasn't asked very well.   Please see my last post above to see what I was getting at.


Paul

[srb]

In addition to "Wrong", "Nonsense" and "Ignorance", we can now add "Ridiculous".
 
Steve

[NagysAudio]

pjchappy -  Your question is impossible to answer. There are no 8 ohm speakers, the impedance is nominal. So if you're talking about the entire frequency range, the impedance will vary drastically. This question has no useful answer, trust me.

[pjchappy]

pjchappy -  Your question is impossible to answer. There are no 8 ohm speakers, the impedance is nominal. So if you're talking about the entire frequency range, the impedance will vary drastically. This question has no useful answer, trust me.

I know the impedance is nominal.  I simplified my question/premise to make it clear what I was asking in the OP.  I got my answer. . .and it was useful.

[sts9fan]

If you feel the question is rediculous then don't post!  Some people learn by asking questions.  I know I do.  Stupid or not all questions will help you gain better understanding. 
You seem to be a very poor businessman. 

[werd]

My question was not ridiculous. . . it just wasn't asked very well.   Please see my last post above to see what I was getting at.


Paul

Pjchhappy your question was good, it was unclear at first, by your own admission, but was made clear in the followup. Having more power is evident at all volumes compared to lower powerd SS at the same volumes. And yes this is from a very subjective point of view but i am not interested in venturing down that road.

[twitch54]

Say you have an amp with a power rating of 500 Watts into 8 Ohms / 250 Watts into 4 Ohms.  You then use that amp to power 87dB efficient monitors, with a max rating of 150 Watts.

Paul, not sure why this wasn't caught earlier.......but your hypothetical power amp you speak of would be considered a 'real turd'....for the simple fact that it's quite unstable..... whereas a stable , current capable amplifier has the ability to 'double down' (500 watts into 8 ohms & 1000 watts into 4 ohms).

basically speaking your show the power 'cut in half' , now the speakers you represent are not terribly ineficient but still..........

[Dan Banquer]

Say you have an amp with a power rating of 500 Watts into 8 Ohms / 250 Watts into 4 Ohms.  You then use that amp to power 87dB efficient monitors, with a max rating of 150 Watts.

Now, would the speakers be the determining factor into how much power the amp is actually putting out?  In other words, would the amp be able to drive the speakers to the "loudest" they could handle and still not actually be putting out 500 Watts of power? (not considering transient, or whatever, outputs here and there)

Thanks!


Paul

There are a number of issues to deal with to fully understand this. The first is the amplifier power into the load at a given frequency and the second is the speaker and where it begins it's compression.
If the amplifier is a linear solid state than one can resonably assume that the amplifiers power will be delivered uniformly across the load of the speaker. If the unit is a switching amplifier than that is not going to be the case as most of the switching amplifiers have a rather reactive output impedance.
The speakers' compression points will differ over frequency and power as JohnR points out. So your question would require a lot of measurements to get you some kind of answer.
Betcha thought you were asking a simple question eh?
Regards;
  d.b.
P.S. If you're amp has the rated power you have posted than running your monitors at high volume in a standard living area should not be a problem unless you are looking for a 110 db/spl average for  Metallica playback.

[JackD201]

Thanks, folks.  My question has been answered.

I'm not trying to get more volume, etc., just wanted to confirm it was "safe" to use a super high-powered amp on low-power "rated" speakers.  I know there are some technical aspects to it, but my generic question/concern has been answered.

I understand the issues of impedance changes, etc., too.  Am not concerned with that. 

To clear it up for others, I was simply wanting to confim this simplified premise:

An amplifier driving an 8 Ohm speaker (say, throughout it's entire frequency response) driven by a 1,000 Watt amp using brand X pre-amp will output the same power at 90dB volume as the same speakers driven by a 100 Watt amp (same "brand" specs/topology as the 1,000 Watt amp) using the same brand X pre-amp at 90dB volume.


Paul

It's safe. Just back off when distortion sets in. I'm willing to wager more folks have busted speakers by accidentally yanking ICs than deliberately going to 11.

Better yet be safe and limit listening to 85dB as much as possible. Having more power also equals more headroom. The speaker system may be rated for average power but particularly in the thermal aspect, take much higher for quick bursts. The extra muscle comes in handy in these cases.

[pjchappy]

Paul, not sure why this wasn't caught earlier.......but your hypothetical power amp you speak of would be considered a 'real turd'....for the simple fact that it's quite unstable..... whereas a stable , current capable amplifier has the ability to 'double down' (500 watts into 8 ohms & 1000 watts into 4 ohms).

basically speaking your show the power 'cut in half' , now the speakers you represent are not terribly ineficient but still..........

I accidentally transposed the power ratings. . . .

I created a monster with this thread.

[BobM]

There's one fundamental flaw with any "simple" comparison of a lower powered amp to a higher powered one. The designs of each, even from the same manufacturer, are going to be necessarily different and any perceived difference could be caused by those differences and not simply a result of increased power.

Keeping that in mind, I recently upgraded from a Mccormack DNA .5 Rev A (100WPC-8 ohm, 200WPC-4 ohm) to a McCormack DNA 500 (500WPC - 8 ohm and much more into 4 ohms). Both should be able to drive my speakers just fine, but the 500 absolutely has better and deeper bass, is smoother sounding overall and produces a wider and deeper soundstage. The .5 can be a little hard when loud, while the 500 has just limitless headroom and never strains.

But the topologies, although fundamentally similar are definitely different in many areas. This could, and most likely explains most of what I'm hearing. So how could one limit the discussion to one purely about the power output and come to any kind of real conclusion?