[mikecole]

I have been using an Exposure 3010 integrated amp for quite a while until it was usurped by a Leben CS300XS. The Leben does not have a phono stage so I have been using the one in the Exposure and using the tape out to run it to the Leben. This was not an exactly ideal situation so I had been on the hunt for a small standalone phono pre. I wound up with the Phono-1 phono preamp from Vista Audio. I thought I would describe my adventures with this preamp. It has been pretty instructive for me, so maybe it will be helpful for someone else. A little background first. Most of the phono stages I have used have been those that were built into the integrated amps I have had. Some of these were the ones included in a CJ-PV12, Nait 3, Fisher 400 tubed receiver and my most recent, the one in my Exposure 3010.  They were all nice sounding, but they could not prepare me for the sound I heard from the Phono-1.
 
The sound I heard was way louder than I usually play it when the volume control is at the 9:00 position. Also, the sound had an intense forced quality to it, but only from the upper mid-range on up. It was kind of CD like in that range and was not as relaxing I was used to. In addition, this emphasis on those frequencies caused some of the records I own that are not well recorded to sound pretty bad. The bass, however, was perfect. It was open, deep and breathed nicely. One other thing I liked was that it allowed the PRaT to come through quite well. In addition, this thing was absolutely noiseless. On well recorded albums, the sound was superb. It was extended in both directions and allowed all of the tonal color to shine thru. I played several cuts on 3 well recorded LPs at a louder than usual volume and was really excited by how good it was.

After a couple of weeks, I started doing some comparisons with the Exposure. The Exposure phono stage has very midrangey sound to it. I read a review of the Exposure 3010S (http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/608exp/index4.html), which is the successor to mine. I think they both share the same phono stage though and the review said that there was a spike in the midrange of about 1 to 1.5 dB, so that must account for the sound I heard. The bass and treble are both not quite as extended as the Phono 1. It is also not as punchy (authoritative?) sounding as the Phono 1 (which was almost a bit much to my ears), it has more of a laid back feel to it which is actually kind of relaxing to my ears. That is not too say that it is too polite or lacks PRaT, it has a very fun foot tapping sound that brings a smile to my face. It just doesn't require that you pay attention to it. With the Phono 1 there have been many times when I was at the computer typing or reading and I messed up because the music kept demanding that I pay attention I think the Exposure is more emotional as opposed to the Phono 1 which is more cerebral. 

When I ordered it, we had agreed to set the gain to 46dB, which should have been perfect. The loading was to be set at 3.3K ohms. I was becoming used to the sound after a couple of weeks (the incisiveness and punch was getting kind of addictive), but I was hoping that a change of loading and gain would bring it more in line with my expectations. I sent it in to get the gain lowered to 42db and get the loading set to 1K ohm (hoping that I was not making a mistake). After getting it back, it was a completely different animal. It was amazing to me how much it had changed.

What I heard now was a change in sound and a change in the music. Good or bad? Not sure yet. If my aural memory is not too far off, I noticed that the bass had become somewhat truncated, it did not go as deep and it did not breathe. The highs did not quite shimmer like they did before and they too were somewhat truncated, maybe even a bit harsh on crummy recordings. Tonal colors had also retreated just a tiny bit. The sonic picture seemed to be a little bit "flattened". Musically, PRaT seemed to be more evident. I noticed my feet started tapping a lot more than before and sooner than before. Another odd thing that happened is that the drums seemed to become more prominent. They were not louder than the rest of the music, but my attention seemed to be drawn towards them more than usual. Hmmm. Now that I think about it, the description I am giving is what I hear from Naim/Exposure/Linn, a kind of flat earth versus round earth perspective. Maybe I have found their secret As far as punch goes, I may have gone too far in the laid back easy going direction with the change to 42db. I now felt the need for just a little more oomph (as I said before, it was becoming addictive). Maybe 44db would have been the right choice.

I think I am finding that the 10x5 cart is kind of an amazing little beast. Somewhere in its belly are the fixin's for both round earth and flat earth sound. The Phono-1 preamp seems to be resolving(?) enough to coax both types of sound out of it. For the price, this has been a really surprising phono preamp. I am guessing you would have to pay *quite* a bit more to improve upon its capabilities. I think I will live with the settings I have for a few weeks and see if it grows on me. I always find that once I get out of "comparison" mode, I enjoy new equipment much more. If it does not grow on me, I will send it back and get the load changed to 2k ohms and the gain changed to 44db. Maybe these will be the magic numbers? Or maybe I will decide that this is really what I want. Its always what works in the long run that matters.

Question for you LP spinners (who are still reading): Do you expect your analog sound to be punchy or easy going?

Mike
 



 

 

[toobluvr]

Hi Mike...

Vinyl playback should be both!  It should be what the music is.  When all is setup right vinyl should be both punchy / dynamic yet smooth and relaxed at the same time.  It should have an organic and palpable quality that says "ahhhhhhhhh".    It should be very exciting and have great speed, drive and detail.  PRAT should be obvious and really get your toe tapping.  It should be engaging and immersive, and when done right, compels you to keep listening. 

I keep hearing about how digital is so much more dynamic and slammin, but that is not my experience.  The LF reproduction of my vinyl rig is tons better than my digital, and the dynamics sound much more natural and unforced.  Maybe my digital needs an upgrade, but I have heard this same vinyl superiority in many excellent systems that have stellar rigs for both digital and analog.

It should not be boring or dead or schnoozy sounding.   If it is, something is wrong.

My guess is the shift in tonal balance you observe is because you have loaded down your cart too much and in the process kindoff rolled the top and sucked the life and air out of it.  I assume the overall tonal balance is kindof dark and somber sounding.  The reason drums have become more prominent is that you have removed some sparkle, air and HF energy from the pallette so your ear is being drawn to what is happening down low.

I too use the Vista phono section.   If you have come across my posts on here you know I think it is an excellent excellent phono section.  I team it with a Dyna 20X-H.  My Vista is set for 40 db gain and 47k load, and it sounds excellent.  Sounds so good that I sold my 2x the price Benz!   

There is some confusion on what the correct load for the 20X cart is.  If I check online, I see "greater than 1k" (same as your 10x).   Yet the spec sheet that came with mine says 47k.  A typo somewhere or an actual change in the cart spec over time?   I have no idea.   

I also now have an adjustable phono section (RSA Nighthawk F-117) and I can check it with my own ears.  Sure enough, the 47k load setting sounds the best.   Vibrant and bristling with air, space and energy yet still smooth and emminently musical.  I am getting great slam and detail in the bass.  But all is proportional and in balance.  Tonality sounds right to me.   Unfortuately, my next setting is 1k (min recommended by Dyna), nothing in between, and it sounds kindof dead and unbalanced there.  Would be nice to be able to check some in between points, but I can't.

I can also play with gain on the Nighthawk.   Our cartridges have almost the identical output (2.8 for me, 2.5 for you).   The 40db setting sounds the best to me.  I get the sense I could use just a wee bit more.  But the next one up is 47db, and is too much.   I think you will be perfectly fine at 42 or 44db, and it is  exactly what the gain calculator here returns:

http://kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

Good Luck!

John

PS:   I'm a bit confused about why you dropped load from 3k to 1k?   Was it too bright or edgy at 3k?   I notice that Dyna recs "greater than 1k".  That's a lot of ground.  Any way to zero in on it w/o keep changing and listening...changing and listening?  Experiences of others?   Is there really that much diff between 2k and 3k?  Or 1k and 2k?   I don't know much about this whole science of cart loading, but just that fact that my adjustable stage provides nothing between 47k and 1k,  I gotta believe there is not.   

Are you absolutely sure your cart setups are good?  With the 20x I find offset angle and overhang to be much more critical than VTA or VTF.  Not sure if 10x is the same, but I would spend some xtra time insuring they are as locked in as possible.  To my ear with the 20x, so long as you are in ballpark with VTF and VTA you are good.

[blakep]

I agree with toobluvr that, in all likelihood, the best settings for your 10 x 5 are going to be 42 db of gain into a 47k load.

Bear in mind that, in spite of Dynavector providing a 150 ohm DC resistance spec and a load recommendation of greater than 1000 ohms (face it, that covers a lot of territory), it is a high output moving coil designed to be used into a 47k MM input.

With MC cartridges (high or low output), at a certain point as you decrease the load you are also decreasing the output of the cartridge (in effect thereby increasing the required gain). So when you decreased the gain and the load at the same time you ended up with a "double whammy"-probably sounds like you're listening through speakers covered with a couple of wet blankets.

While it is certainly possible that the ideal load for your 10 x 5 might be somewhere between 1000 ohms and 47K, I would definitely start at the 47k  it has been designed to see on average with the correct gain and that is 42 exactly. My guess is that you'll be very pleased with the sound with those settings.

[mikecole]

The sound I am hearing is not like a wet blanket effect. I suspect that kind of effect is if the center of balance of the frequency range were in the mid bass region. What I hear is that the upper midrange is slightly more emphasized. It *almost* has a phasey transparent quality to it. Probably not accurate, but not unpleasant either. I think this is what makes the PRaT more evident. I'm not sure why the drums would attract more attention though. From what I have read, the difference between 1K and 47K should not be that great, just a lessening of brightness with a lowering of the load. I heard a lessening of both frequency extremes though. I originally dropped the load from 3.3K to 1K because it seemed like the upper midrange on up was sort of being accenuated. I am now of the opinion that maybe my cartridge actually sounds like this. It is, afterall, an MC  which are supposedly tipped up anyway. I am guessing that the difference between 1K and 3.3 K is much greater than between 3.3K and 47K. Thanks for your replies, guys. It helps me focus on the differences more. BTW, I did double check my setup and I did play a bit with the VTA, but everything appears to be correct.

[toobluvr]

OK Mike.....

I have been using the Vista phono for almost a year now, and I have run 4 or 5 different cartridges into it (Benz, Dyna, Clearaudio, etc), so I can say with a very high degree of certainty that any anomalies or imbalances you are hearing are not the intrinsic sound of the Vista phono stage itself.  I have also inserted it into systems of several friends and it has never failed to perform great in them......with the appropriate cart, of course.

If you start from that point, then it could be anything else in your vinyl (I assume other sources don't sound like this?) playback chain from stylus to line stage inputs.

Includes but not limited to:  cart load error,  damaged cart,  cart setup problem,  cable compatability problem, cart / tonearm compatability problem, etc.  Or as you say, maybe the sound of the cart itself?  (I seriously doubt it!)

You are correct, changing load from 47k to 1k is not huge.  I have tried it -- a slightly shelved treble is observed, but not huge.

If you getting the sense that your treble is slightly tipped up, try lowering the back of your tonearm and / or increase the tracking force.

Good luck in sorting out your problem!  Maybe a call to Dynavector is in order?  If you check the Dyna website you will see that both our cartridges share the same rec'd loading, and they are only one model apart.   Just educated guessing here, but If I am getting great results at 47k, you should too.

Search on the audio boards.  The 10x is a popular cart so I'm sure the loading question has been asked and answered many times over.

Call or email Boris.  He is a good guy and very user friendly.

[mikecole]

John, I did not think any of problems I have been having had anything to do with the Phono-1. If anything, I think the clarity of the preamp is just revealing things I hadn't heard before. Well, I had not thought about changing the tracking force on the cart. I reread Art Dudley's review of the 10x5 and he was using 2.2 grams. Mine was set for 1.9 because it seemed the PRaT was best at that setting. I decided to try 2.1 grams and see what would happen. First off, my cart rides low at 1.9 grams and rides *really* low at 2.1 grams. I guess I got one of the ones with the dodgy suspension. It sails thru the HiFi News test record though. The increased weight did slow the sound down and the timing was not quite as good as it was, but the sound took on more weight and solidity. That phasey transparent sound is no longer evident. Vocals are just slightly gorgeous now   The timing thing may be an issue though. I have only played a couple of songs, so I will have to try this out for a while to get used to the change. It is so wierd - I can feel those .2 grams when I cue the tone arm over the LP.

[toobluvr]

That's great Mike, glad you are making some progress.   

What you heard when increasing VTF is exactly as it should be.  It should get warmer and weightier.  I like my 20X right up near the top of the recommended range.  So if they are similar, and I assume they are,  you are probably good there.

Don't forget, as you change tracking force, the VTA is slightly changing as well.  Increasing VTF will also effectively cause the back of the cartridge to ride lower.....same as if you had dropped the rear of the tonearm.   Try raising it up a bit.  It will lean out a lil bit , but it will also get a bit faster and you may recover some of your lost pace.

Keep trading off between VTF and VTA, very small increments, till you get it right by ear.  This is what I would do:  Keep the VTF at 2.1 (that's where my 20x likes to be, so I'm assuming the same for your 10x) and then just play with small changes in VTA.   If it gets too lean and edgy, drop the back of the arm.  If it gets too plump, dark and slow, raise the back of the arm.  You will eventually hit the spot where it sounds open, tonally balanced, pacey and just "right".

When done, don't forget to double check VTF.  It may have changed slightly with VTA adjustments.

PS:   I still gotta believe that you are not loaded properly.   Mine sounds just right at 47k, and noticeably inferior at 1k.

[bacobits1]

I'm using the 10X5 at 1.9 grams VTF.
It is loaded at 100 MC Low setting on the Mini Max it sounds excellent. Lots of gain, maybe too much?
BUT reading all this I will try the MM 47K setting again. You have my curiosity up again.
The 10x5  is a nice cartridge I like much better than my Benz Glider I had.


D

[toobluvr]

It is loaded at 100 MC Low setting on the Mini Max it sounds excellent.

Damn Den....you must like your music served up sans HF info!!       

[bacobits1]

No, actually it lacks slam at the 47k MM setting. Tried it last night again.
I like the extra boost using the step up trannies. It just sounds dull until I run it this way. I don't hear loss of highs. Maybe it's psychological having to turn up the volume that far to get decent sound. The EE is not adjustable at all and it would be nice to have many settings as on the Nighthawk.

D

[mikecole]

Well, I think I have *finally* found the right combination of VTA and VTF. I thought I had it last Wednesday night. Just before bedtime I was liking what I heard. The next day after work I fired things up and the sound I had was gone. So for the next couple of days I kept on tweaking. Saturday afternoon I was close again to good sound. I then did something which I thought was unrelated - I cleaned the belt and the drive path. Viola - the sound was back. It stayed all day and into the next day. I still do not have the deep lows or the shimmering highs though. The sound I have is still a bit truncated, but fairly well balanced and kind of transparent sounding. Then, just for the hell of it, I raised my speakers up about 7 inches and the sound got just a little bit more balanced. But I just know it could be better. I think the 42db gain is probably OK. The loading needs to be changed though. I am still thinking 2K, but then I think about the fact that probably 99% of the people using this cart are using 47K, and I start to doubt myself. I guess I'll continue to listen for a while and then decide.

Bacobits, what kind of gain does your MM setting have? What is the total gain when using the MC setting and the stepups?

Mike