[Arctos]

Dave,
If you don't mind, could you tell me how far apart you space the biscuits when you construct your MDF enclosure panels?  Also, do you use biscuits to join the wood baffle to the MDF side panels?  Final question, when you glue do you go heavy with the application and wipe away the excess or do you apply in a more exacting manner?

I have some limited experience with carpentry, but am planning my first DIY speaker project, and have heard nothing but great news about your skills and products.

Thanks in advance for your help!

RDS

[Al Garay]

You should contact Dave directly and ask him to send you the cabinet plans. It will show a picture with the biscuits. He puts a bunch of them. You could follow his count and space them evenly. As long as they all line up, I don't think it matters if you use 4 instead of 5 and exactly how far apart they should be. Use plenty of glue. It's easy to sand the residue once the sides are assembled.

Darren Thomas is building another set of 1801's for someone. He did an outstanding job on my and Ravi's cabinets. Perhaps, he'll shime in ...

Al

[David Ellis]

This is a very fair question, and one that I should answer publicly.  I will offer some background before starting into the details.  I will over the the past, the present, my recommendation, and what I don't know.

When I started building cabinets I used a craftsman table saw and a 1/8" blade.  This saw was okay, but squirmed a little.  My joints weren't perfectly straight.  At this time I used 16 biscuits to fasten the top/bottom to the front/back/braces.  I generally used 32 biscuits on the side panels (16 per side).  I used 3 on top, 3 on the bottom, 5 on the front and 5 on the back.  I did this until....



R.I.P.  My 1960 craftsman saw died.  It was a sorrowful loss... for about a month.  

I then purchased a Powermatic 64A and a good blade from www.ridgecarbidetool.com (killer blades). I quickly overcame my loss of the old Craftsman saw.  The Powermatic fence is a joy to work with. I thank God every time I clamp the fence down to a measurement that is always good to 1/100" pr less.   Subsequently I my cuts are flatter and my joints are tighter.  I still use 16 biscuits to fasten the top/bottom to the front/back/braces.  I only use 4 biscuts per side on the panels though.  This is because my work is more precise.

IF,if, if, you are not very comfortable, I still recommend the first method.  If you cabinet is slightly out of square, it will pull the cabinet straight (within limits).

I don't BELIEVE there is any real change in strenght between the joinery methods.  There certainly isn't any change for the knock test.  My step-father told me years ago that when glue is used correctly it is darn strong.  I could still park my truck on top of the cabinets without crushing them.  Hm, this would be a neat picture.  I should do this.

Anyway, that should explain things from my perspective.

Darren might have some thoughts too.

Dave

[Arctos]

Thanks!!,
Love the photo!!!  Looks like you have a good helper and supervisor.

I think I will go with the first option, as my table saw is an old Skill saw that probably was'nt that great when it was new.  I must say that with a little careful measuring at each end of the blade and making sure I measure from the correct set of blade tips to the fence I do OK with what I have.

Now my problem is that the table part of the saw is pretty small and the 4 x 8 sheet of MDF is pretty large.  I am considering building a large table around the saw, but may try using a set of rollers first to see if I can save space.

Thanks again (and thank you too, Al),

RDS

[David Ellis]

They use the Vifa Ring tweeter which ain't bad.  There is a little even order distortion according to those who measured them, but not a bad tweeter.  The woofer, well, I saw those at CES last year.  They looked quite impressive to the eye, and the manufacturer agrees with me, "These white metal-alloy drivers give the RS750 one of the most attractive front baffles you've ever seen".  The cabinet is darn sexy looking too!  

The woofers...  I had a little difficulty speaking with the folks who sold these drivers. If they are the same drivers used in the Rocket 750.  One of the young guys spoke a little bit of english and was very kind.  The rest of the folks representing this company were from China and didn't speak any English.   I strongly considered using these drivers.  They really look sharp.  The price was right too.  Even during initialy conversation the price was sub $10each in relatively small quantity.  After few days of thinking I decided against building cabinets for a sub $10 driver.  

Please consider that I cannot comment on what these drivers might sound like.  I never did hear them, or the Onyx speakers for that matter.

I think the folks who built this speaker were darn smart to select that woofer!  I sure thought about using one in another project.  It looked very appealing!  I am sure they will sell the heck out of these speakers in the Home Theater market.

Dave

[Darren Thomas]

Bisquits offer good insurance. If you have the proper equipment such as a good cabinet saw and the skills to make very accurate cuts the bisquits are, in my opinion, optional. They do help quite a bit in the clamping process though as they keep the pieces from sliding around. If you apply the proper amount of a good yellow glue and have a good joint with proper contact between the two pieces the glue joint will actually be stronger than the wood itself. You can test this by gluing up a test piece and then breaking it apart. Generally it will break at a point other than the joint. If it breaks near the joint you should see that it probably broke outside the glued area.

When clamping avoid extreme pressure or compensating for poor joints with clamping pressure as this will create a glue starved joint which will fail with time. Clamping pressure should be just enough to get some squeeze out and hold the joint snug until it dries.

For the record. I do use the bisquits in all my 1801 cabinets. I feel it is important to stick with designs that have proven to be very successful.

If your cuts are precise you can get away with any number of bisquits you feel comfortable using. Nice answer eh? Vague...

Let me know if you have any questions.

Darren

[Darren Thomas]

I think I will go with the first option, as my table saw is an old Skill saw that probably was'nt that great when it was new.  I must say that with a little careful measuring at each end of the blade and making sure I measure from the correct set of blade tips to the fence I do OK with what I have.

Now my problem is that the table part of the saw is pretty small and the 4 x 8 sheet of MDF is pretty large.  I am considering building a large table around the saw, but may try using a set of rollers first to see if I can save space.

Thanks again (and thank you too, Al),

RDS

Hi Arctos,

When you are ligning up the fence to be parallel with the blade be sure and align the fence so that the trailing end is about 1/32" wider than the front. This way you will avoid a trailing cut which will affect the accuracy of the cut and could also cause the piece to rise up on the blade creating kickback. You should end up with a much cleaner cut. Also, do you have a skill or circular saw? If so be sure to use a long ruler or pice of straight wood as a guide and cut the 4X8 sheet down to more manageable chunks for use on the tablesaw. I have a panel saw for this but before I had the panel saw I used the above method.

Darren

[Arctos]

Thanks Darren/Dave,
I must say that I have learned more about cabinet-making in the last few days from you both than I have learned in weeks of reading books and web articles!!  Darren, I will definetely use your tip on blade/fence spacing as well as using my circular saw to make the MDF more manageable.

Well, I guess its time to dive in.  Got my Porter Cable router for Christmas and a Rockler router table for my birthday, I'm ready to go!

Thanks again,

RDS

Oh, forgot one thing:  Dave, those blades you mentioned earlier are pretty expensive.  Are there any that are cheaper that do a decent job?

[David Ellis]

Well,

The Forrest table saw blade is a little cheaper, but not by much.  

I purchased a ridge blade based on a few comments at www.badgerpond.com .  There is an excellent forum there.  A very experienced old woodworker claimed to have tried all of the very good blades and found the Ridge blades superior.

The utility of having a $120 blade on a $200 saw seems rather strange/wrong.  Consider that the blade will still be sharp when your little saw dies and the blade will be equal to any subsequent better saw.  

Previous to the Ridge blade I used a Pirhana blade from the local hardware store.  I think that I paid abut $20 for the blade.  It flexed incessantly, and was very dull after about 5-10 sheets of MDF.  The Ridge blade somehow remains razor sharp after 30+ sheets of MDF and a whole bunch of other cutting.  I don't know how this is possible, but that blade is still incredibly sharp.  

If you are on a budget, the Ridge folks do build custom blades.  They might do a 24tooth Flat top rip blade for about $80.  Less teeth might sound bad, but it'll lighten the load on your little saw.  Tell the Ridge folks your application and they will give you solid advice.  Also the nice true cutting edge is maintained primarily from a very straight/true blade.  More teeth sound cool, but that nice straight edge is from a very straight blade.

I find that most mass-market (i.e. Freud, Rockler, Sears....) cutters are all about the same.  There are a few standout products.  Normally a guy has to dig a little to find that shop in the woods with real people on the phone and at the machines.  The Ridge stuff is the best I have found.  The
other product I considered was CMT.  This stuff might be okay, but I don't know.

Dave

[Arctos]

Thanks again Dave,
It sounds like spending a little more money now will save me time and money later (which is usually true).

As usual, I have another few questions:

1.  Do you (or anyone else) have any recommendation for a brand/type of router bits?  My Porter Cable router has a plunge base as well as a fixed base and can take 1/4" and 1/2" bits.  I will use it with a Rockler bench mount router table.

2.  What size biscuit do you use for joining?

Thanks,

RDS

[bubba966]

Go with 1/2" router bits at all times unless you absolutely can't get a particular bit in 1/2" shank. A 1/2" shank has much more surface area for the router to hold onto so the chance of it slipping in the chuck is greatly reduced. Having a bit "walk" out of the collet is very bad. Usually it'll walk out just enough to ruin the workpiece. But there's always the chance it could drop the bit entirely. And carbide spinning at 10kRPM would be very, very bad...

[David Ellis]

I use 1/2" shank router bits whenever possible.  

I use #20 biscuits.

Insofar as router bits go, this is what I have experienced.

Cheap Chinese made stuff/Sears/MLCS - Get dull very quick.

Freud - Maybe a little better, but not much better.

Rocker Blue - not a bad bit really. I am sure these are made in China too, but these things hold an edge okay.  These wuld be my choice for a cheaper bit.

Amana - A good bit.  These hold a nice edge.

Ridge - A touch better than Amana IMO.  I have hogged serious material  with my Ridge bits and they never seem to dull.  I don't know how this happens, but it does.

Hopefully this response is what you are seeking.  

Good questions.  You are welcome to ask these questions here, but the real woodworking guru's post at the Badger Pond woodworking forum.

Dave

[Arctos]

Thanks again Dave,
I am due for a visit to the Badger Pond!!

Regards,

RDS

[Arctos]

Hi Dave,
Its me again!  2 more questions if you will:

1.  What are the specific specs on the router bit you use to round over the edges of your cabinets?  Example:  1/2" radius x 3/4" height...


2.  I have contacted Ridge about a cheaper option to the TS2000 table saw blade and they offered me a deal on a discontinued blade called a Northwoods.  They explained that is was a cheaper option, but still a good blade.  Do you have any experience with this blade?  I need to cut MDF as well as 3.4" hardwood.

Thanks again,

RDS

[Arctos]

Hi Dave,
Its me again!  2 more questions if you will:

1.  What are the specific specs on the router bit you use to round over the edges of your cabinets?  Example:  1/2" radius x 3/4" height...


2.  I have contacted Ridge about a cheaper option to the TS2000 table saw blade and they offered me a deal on a discontinued blade called a Northwoods.  They explained that is was a cheaper option, but still a good blade.  Do you have any experience with this blade?  I need to cut MDF as well as 3/4" hardwood.

Thanks again,

RDS

[David Ellis]

I am sorry for my slow response.  I am very busy with some changes.

I use a 1/2" shank 3/4" radius bit.

I don't have any specific experience with the blade that that Ridge offered you.  I do have 2 blades from Ridge and have developed some opinion.

I believe that blade material, strength and machining are far more important than blade configuration.  My triple chip grind blade will crosscut with much less tear-out than a cheap blade dedicated for my miter box.   A triple chip grind is NOT made for crosscut.

I also believe that the Ridge guys are good folks.  If they fell good about the blade and your application, then it will work just fine for you.  My hunch is that there is very little difference between the new and old blades with regard to quality.

Dave

[shokunin]

I haven't used Ridge but Forrest and Guhdo are excellet blades.  My austrian-made table saw uses different bore patterns so I can't easily use a standard US blade in my saw.

For router bits, I've used Rockler, whiteside, CMT, Jesada, amana and freud.  All seem to be pretty good.  The CMT and Whiteside seem to hold an edge well.  Then the Jesada and Rockler.  The amana bits I get seem to burn too easily for whatever reason.   I also had excellent results with Hersaf insert tooling router bits.  

Nonetheless they are all decent bits and are much better than the really cheap stuff from China.  

Since the Badger Pond is closing   , theoak, woodcentral and sawmillcreek are the forums that are left to go to.

[shokunin]

My triple chip grind blade will crosscut with much less tear-out than a cheap blade dedicated for my miter box.   A triple chip grind is NOT made for crosscut.

Triple Chip profiles are made for purposely for veneers/plywood.  I have a dedicated Triple Chip (Guhdo TCT)  blade and scoring blades when I crosscut expensive veneered plywood.  Then again you don't really crosscut plywood, simply cutting across the grain on the veneer.

[Arctos]

Thanks guys,
Again, great advice.  I will be calling Ridge tomorrow to discuss the blade and to order the router bit.

Shokunin,
I will look into the Rockler bits for my other bit needs, as they seem reasonably priced and my router table from them is very solid.l

Regards,

RDS

[David Ellis]

I really don't have an intimate understanding of how a tooth cuts through wood.  A waterskiing buddy told me that the triple chip grind blade was purposed for MDF because of its abrasive nature.  The guys at Ridge confirmed the use of a TCG on MDF.  I never did ask anyone about crosscutting with the TCG, but it does work pretty good.  The TCG does leave a weee-bit more tearout than the TS2000 ATB/G blade from Ridge though.  The TS2000 leaves the edge killer smooth/flat, and also just won't get dull.

I agree with the general quality of the Rockler bits.  For a cheap bit, they are fairly decent.  I have also experinced some burning with my Amana 3/4" roundover.  Maybe it is the bevel on the cutting edge??

Dave