[Napalm]

I think the link below will help you understand why there are so many "atrocious" CD's.
http://www.turnmeup.org/

There's more to it. Since finally it's me and only me that has the volume control in my hand, they can't dictate how loud I turn it.

What's not addressed in that article is that the market is saturated with poor quality amplifiers, speakers, mp3 players, headphones and car stereos. They do not have the dynamic range to support the playback of a properly recorded CD.

Let's use the example track from www.turnmeup.org. If you play the original (dynamic) track through such a system, you'll have to turn the volume up, so you can hear the softer passage at normal listening volume. When the drums will kick in, the amp will clip or the underpowered speakers will distort like crazy and the resulting sound will be very poor (think of a fart instead of drums attack).

So the good folks at the recording studios are addressing exactly these underpowered systems and compress the drums so you can still listen at a reasonable volume without driving the amp/speaker into saturation.

Then they will be amazed by the declining CD sales and will blame it on "the pirates".

Nap. 

[Napalm]

This just came out:



The previous two ones (La Revancha del Tango, made famous by the "Shall We Dance" movie, and Lunatico),  certainly share a certain compressed, upper bass / mids heavy "house sound" that's not very "easy listening".

But Tango 3.0 is overdone big time. The massacre happened here:

http://www.sterling-sound.com/main.php

and the guys are actually proud of it:

"Since the introduction of the format in the early 1980's Sterling Sound has mastered thousands of Compact Discs. By constantly challenging the accepted standards, by collaborating with leading manufacturers and by internal development of proprietary signal processing and techniques, Sterling Sound has continually re-defined the standard for CD mastering. In 1988 Sterling developed a DSP device that allowed our engineers to make louder CD's without use of a compressor or limiter. "

Thank you.... not. Folks, I can make it as loud as I want by rotating the volume knob, and if max is not enough, then I'll just buy a bigger amp and/or more sensitive speakers. Don't freakin' DSP it so it sounds "loud" through an iPod.... just make a special version for iTunes if you need to.....

I think I had enough. No more blind CD buying. ECM, Deutsche Gramophon and Decca for me only.

Nap. 

[Anonamemouse]

I think I had enough. No more blind CD buying. ECM, Deutsche Gramophon and Decca for me only.

Nap.

i hear you. seconded.

[math-geek]

Yeah there's quite a few CD's with great musical content that I cannot listen to on my system due to poor recording.  Natalie Merchant - Tigerlily comes to mind, as with some of Sarah McLachlan's earlier CD's.

What kind of speakers are listening to that make "Tigerlilly" unlistenable?  On my system when she sings "The Letter" it sounds as if Natalie is singing to me.

Bad.  Motley Crue "Shout at the Devil".  Just horrible!

[math-geek]

You are dead on with your observations.  I have an Acura TL with kilowatt+ A/D/S amp and speaker system installed in it.  I don't worry about power in my car.  Overly compressed music is catering to the mp3 crowd with sh$%tty audio systems.  Speaking of mp3 and quality to myself is an oxymoron.  I have made converts but there are so many others and the road is a long one.

There's more to it. Since finally it's me and only me that has the volume control in my hand, they can't dictate how loud I turn it.

What's not addressed in that article is that the market is saturated with poor quality amplifiers, speakers, mp3 players, headphones and car stereos. They do not have the dynamic range to support the playback of a properly recorded CD.

Let's use the example track from www.turnmeup.org. If you play the original (dynamic) track through such a system, you'll have to turn the volume up, so you can hear the softer passage at normal listening volume. When the drums will kick in, the amp will clip or the underpowered speakers will distort like crazy and the resulting sound will be very poor (think of a fart instead of drums attack).

So the good folks at the recording studios are addressing exactly these underpowered systems and compress the drums so you can still listen at a reasonable volume without driving the amp/speaker into saturation.

Then they will be amazed by the declining CD sales and will blame it on "the pirates".

Nap. 

[vegasdave]

What kind of speakers are listening to that make "Tigerlilly" unlistenable?  On my system when she sings "The Letter" it sounds as if Natalie is singing to me.

Bad.  Motley Crue "Shout at the Devil".  Just horrible!

That actually sounds great on vinyl.

[smargo]

I think I had enough. No more blind CD buying. ECM, Deutsche Gramophon and Decca for me only.

Nap. 

Me too - for over 15 years the cd's i like the most are the ones that sound good to my ears - 0nly about 5% of stuff that other people love and think that are incredible - are the ones that i can listen to and love as well - the other 95% to me are just plain lousy!

[doug s.]

What kind of speakers are listening to that make "Tigerlilly" unlistenable?  On my system when she sings "The Letter" it sounds as if Natalie is singing to me.

Bad.  Motley Crue "Shout at the Devil".  Just horrible!

i dunno whether tigerlily was poorly recorded or not; i couldn't get through the content, regardless of sq - talk about a boring monotonous "every-song-sounds-the-same" recording - that one is way up there...

ymmv,

doug s.

[Anonamemouse]

Bad.  Motley Crue "Shout at the Devil".  Just horrible!

i own both the very first release on cd and a later version, and the first one actually sounds as good as the vinyl album. the re-release sounds like sh*t.

this is something i notice frequently, specially with older albums. the first release of a cd sounds good to excellent, any re-release after that just sucks...

[4WR]

Rush "Vapor Trails" is compressed so bad there is ZERO dynamic range and is mastered so hot it's loaded with clicks, pops and static noise from digital clipping.

A real shame.

Take Care

[Napalm]

While for a while we were blaming "digital" technology as the culprit for unsatisfactory music listening in our homes, I suspect now that the answer lies elsewhere.

Notice the plethora of DACs and mega-bucks CD players available now? And we're still not satisfied? We blame the 16/44.1 format, but then realize that SACD isn't such a big improvement either?

How about if CD is actually a revealing enough medium (in the sense that we use when talking about a "very revealing" or "ruthless" amplifier or speaker) that allow us to hear in detail all the s**t that the engineers did to the sound in the recording studio?

And actually all that the mega-bucks CD players are doing is just turd polishing? And the more you polish, the more it stinks? As we're actually doing "garbage in - garbage out" stuff, where the garbage is the recording studio's "achievement"? So with a "better" CD player we would expose even more of the underlying junk?

I'm mentioning this since I *do* have some CDs that produce exceptional sound, and not only in high end gear but in more pedestrian systems too. Those that sound good sound good period. The bad ones are hopeless period.

The technology to produce outstanding records exists, but in the real world no one cares about. Should I mention again Q-sound and Roger Waters "Amused To Death" album? See, anything is possible, even surround sound from 2 speakers? But who cares about what's possible? How about we look for the "lowest bidder" recording studio instead? And hey, we just heard that they also do that "loudness" thing that will automagically sell the tune no matter how crappy it is?

These days it seems that the artists / record houses are actually focusing in producing and selling i-tunes. They perform, record and master for i-tunes. The CDs are just byproducts that are dumped on the unsuspecting public for an extra buck.

Nap. 
 

[Mike Nomad]

Much of what people are complaining about has more to do with (in the case of re-issues) picking the correct masters, and in all cases, getting it right at the mastering point.

That is not to say that format (CD vs. DVD-A vs. SACD, or Blu-Ray) and the recording process do not have a significant impact.

Mercury Rev recorded their "Deserter's Songs" release on 35mm Mag. A more obvious highpoint recording is the Cowboy Junkies' "Trinity Sessions." On CD, these records sound outstanding, and would love to own these titles on SACD.

I think there are a number of reasons why there are (still) so many atrocious sounding CDs. Some of this is an echo of what Nap. has said:

* On re-issues, EQ'd masters for non-digital formats continue to be used. There are people like Steve Hoffman fighting the good fight, but they are the exception, not the rule. The best example of what needs to be done for re-issues is exemplified by the very stupid story around Kind Of Blue.

* The number of people recording has gone up, while the percentage who actually know what they are doing has not been maintained.

* The number of people mastering has gone up, while the percentage who actually know what they are doing has not been maintained.

* CD is not a very forgiving format. Frankly, I'm amazed at how far we have gotten with sound improvements related to the format. However, there is Mo' Better out there. CDs need to go away. The new "bottom" for audio recordings should be DVD @ 16/48. Personally, I would like to see the floor raised to stereo 24/96 LPCM, which will play on _any_ DVD player.

* The equipment people use for playback continues to improve at a given price point. I am still amazed that with a couple of grand worth of stereo equipment, I can listen to a DVD-A of early Elvis Presley recordings and be able to tell whether he was cutting the vocal in a booth, or out on the floor with the band.

Sorry if this came off as a rant.

[Napalm]

[...] the very stupid story around Kind Of Blue.[...]

Bwaha!!! That was particularly funny.... they did the first CD from the wrong tape at the wrong speed at the wrong volume.... and they needed what, 3 or 4 more re-issues to (incrementally) fix these????? 

These are the people to whom the Congress, through ever-extending copyright laws, gave the monopoly in preserving and managing our cultural heritage...... 

No wonder some high end CD players started to sport a "pitch" control, like the casette decks of yore.... 

Nap. 

[James Tanner]

Hi Folks,

Given the sad state of CD quality maybe the ability to download and play high resolution digital music files (BDA-1/BDP-1) may be the answer?

James

[Napalm]

Hi Folks,

Given the sad state of CD quality maybe the ability to download and play high resolution digital music files (BDA-1/BDP-1) may be the answer?

James

Hi James,

We can only hope that, but my personal fear is that, if it's the recording/mastering stage that's the real culprit, and not the limits of 16/44.1, then higher resolution would bring no improvement (or even make things worse)???

Otherwise the BDA-1 is a sure sell anyway, at least for performance/convenience with 16/44.1 and CDs.

The media player is a little iffy, it would heavily rely on convenience factor.... I do own a large amount of CDs, to the point that part of my collection has to sit in the basement as there's not enough space to fit it all in the living room.... so please make sure that the thing would be rock solid and extremely easy to use, as if it comes out quirky and you need to fight with it..... I'd rather go downstairs to bring some more CDs instead... 

Nap. 

[smargo]

nap:

also lp's fall into the same category - ive heard some atrociously recorded records as well - a lot in fact over the years

[konut]

We can only hope that, but my personal fear is that, if it's the recording/mastering stage that's the real culprit, and not the limits of 16/44.1, then higher resolution would bring no improvement (or even make things worse)???

 

The heart of the matter. JVC/XRCD, Mobile Fidelity, and Telarc have proved that 16/44.1 is capable of providing an exemplary audiophile experience. Vote with your dollars. Don't buy crap. Do the research before you buy. Having said all that,

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." Variously attributed to either P.T. Barnum or H. L. Mencken

[doug s.]

it's definitely what's happening in the studio that screws up the sound, even w/lp's - i wasted $40 on the santana supernatural album, cuz i read that the cd was so compressed.  guess what - so is the winyl.  i guess the engineers needed to do that for all those folks playing lp's in the high noise enwironment of their cars?      

but, for truly exceptional sounding recordings, lp trumps cd every time, imo.  it sucks that sony/philips cheaped out so badly - 24/192 was technically feasible back in 1983...

doug s.

[James Tanner]

Hi James,

We can only hope that, but my personal fear is that, if it's the recording/mastering stage that's the real culprit, and not the limits of 16/44.1, then higher resolution would bring no improvement (or even make things worse)???

Otherwise the BDA-1 is a sure sell anyway, at least for performance/convenience with 16/44.1 and CDs.

The media player is a little iffy, it would heavily rely on convenience factor.... I do own a large amount of CDs, to the point that part of my collection has to sit in the basement as there's not enough space to fit it all in the living room.... so please make sure that the thing would be rock solid and extremely easy to use, as if it comes out quirky and you need to fight with it..... I'd rather go downstairs to bring some more CDs instead... 

Nap. 

Yes but the beauty of the ability to directly download files is they can be Mastered at high resolution (96/24-192/24) and then your average guy can download the MP3 for listening in elevators and us audiophiles can download the high res stuff

james

[Napalm]

Yes but the beauty of the ability to directly download files is they can be Mastered at high resolution (96/24-192/24) and then your average guy can download the MP3 for listening in elevators and us audiophiles can download the high res stuff
james

Knowing how the industry works... they will master for the mp3 file... then expand the mp3 into 96/24 for the "audiophiles"..... 

Just check how they made the Norah Jones "Come Away With Me" SACD:

http://www.stereophile.com/thefifthelement/1104fifth/

Nap.