[ctviggen]

I built the computer on which I'm typing this myself. The first motherboard was DOA.  I got a replacement motherboard, which worked for maybe a year before it too died.  It advertised RAID as an option, but RAID did not work with my three identical drives.

So, I bought another motherboard that could use my AMD processor and memory.  I set up this with RAID 1 and two other drives.  One drive had XP from the previous motherboard and is solely there so I could copy info from XP if I needed it.  I installed Win 7, 64 bit onto the other drive.  This motherboard had a problem in that it kept forgetting which drive was the bootable Win 7 drive and would randomly try to boot to the RAID disks or XP.  I would go back into the BIOS and correct things and Win 7 would run fine.  So, I did a BIOS update and the board would no longer do anything (or at least anything I could see).

So, I bought yet a different motherboard.  This motherboard also offered RAID 1, so I set up two drives in RAID 1 and kept my other two drives (one with XP, and one where I intended to reinstall Win 7 over the old Win 7 installation). This BIOS had an option where it would allow me to select the order of booting per drive.  However, it didn't work.  I couldn't change the order.  So, I had put the XP drive first, the RAID array second, and the old Win 7 drive third (by mere coincidence, by the order in which these were connected to the SATA connections).  I could've opened up the computer case again and reordered the XP and Win 7 drives, but I was able to install Win 7 to a second partition on the XP drive (although now I have a boot manager that loads, even though I'll never actually boot into XP -- and can't without reinstalling XP).

Is my experience unusual?  Or do system builders do this and like it?  I spent three weekends reconfiguring this computer, and to me it's wasted time.  I may not build another computer unless someone can tell me my experience is unusual.

[Niteshade]

My experience has been positive lately. It's a good practice to read reviews about the components you're purchasing. Price doesn't always have anything to do with component reliability. Sometimes you'll see a string of negative comments. That equates to a bad production run. Look for combo deals and sales on high end parts.

[mgalusha]

I've rarely had problems with systems I've pieced together. The times I have had trouble it was usually with bad video drivers or poor motherboards. These days things seem to be much better in terms of not getting crap but I'm sure they are still out there. I have a Asus mobo that should be good but it's RAID controller will simply forget about the drives every now and then and nuke all the data. As you might guess, it's not installed in anything...

The last one I pieced together was partly a result of reading reviews on various parts and comments on stability were high on my list of priorities. It needs to be solid and I'll happily trade a little performance for stability. I started overclocking stuff back in the 386 days and finally got tired of problems just to get the last bit of performance. The tiny amount of time saved by the extra speed was dwarfed by time spent screwing with things to keep them happy.

[ricmon]

Ok I think I got it.  You are going to have to build 2 separate  raid arrays, these two arrays will be where you install each OS (sorry you are going to have to reinstall).  Now you can use the windows boot loader to boot XP or Win 7.

[bpape]

Driver issues can be very frustrating. I've built enough machines over the years that I have just a couple of companies that I stay with all the time for motherboards, drives, etc.  I know how they work.  I know their reliability.  I know their BIOS quirks, etc. 

To do something like you were wanting to do, you had a few things against you from the start.  New OS with it's associated quirks - though Win 7 is actually pretty good and stable. 

Trying to put an old bootable drive from an old OS into the machine at the same time.  At a minimum, I would have the new machine up and running Win 7 from scratch before I even thought about putting in that old drive.  I would put it in, copy what you want from it, then pull it back out.  Any time you have 2 bootable drives that are not just a RAID 1 pair (another different potential problem child), you're just asking for the machine to get confused unfortunately.

Bryan

[Kevin Haskins]

Anytime you put a unique set of hardware together it has the potential to have conflicts.   The suggestions about the boot drive is a good one.   Start with one drive and after everything is stable copy what you need from the old.     Those drive imaging programs are great but they don't reliably work for a new set of hardware.    There are just too many potential gremlins that can pop up.

The MB & memory interface is important.   Use RAM that has been tested by your MB manufacture.  I had a job supporting hardware/software a decade ago and our largest issues were almost always related to flaky power supplies or memory.   Power supplies that are crap will give you all kinds of headache because their problems and failure mode is not always obvious other than stability problems.   You can think you have a bad MB but it isn't the MB.   It is the cheap ass power supply. 

I'm building a system today.... first I've done in a few years and I splurged on the power supply.      If I didn't have the urge to play with a system build I'd just buy a Dell and be done with it because building systems is not cost effective if you value your time.   

[whanafi]

RAID on the motherboard is rarely a good idea.  If something goes wrong, you are on the same system you need to use to recover with - too many variables for reliability, particularly since the chip/driver combination is probably unique - if you have to get a new motherboard, it is unlikely to be able to read the RAID configured drivers correctly anyway.

After building PC's since the pirate BIOS days in mid-80's Hong Kong, I have come to the conclusion that the PC should be as simple as possible when it comes to drive geometry, and that a good NAS is the way to go for RAID storage.

My latest build is running Windows 7 64bit, on an ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 motherboard, Intel Core I7 920, 6 GB DDR3 RAM, ATI 5850 Graphics card, Western Digital Raptor 300GB for the system drive, and a Seagate 1TB for local storage.  NAS is Netgear ReadyNAS NV+.   

I rip CD's on the main system, and then a Syncback SE job copies the files to the NAS, which then backs itself up to a portable 640GB Seagate FreeAgent.  A mite paranoid, but experience says 3 copies minimum to survive "events" and my own stupidity.

BTW, I found that a small from factor PC (SFF) running VORTEXBOX is sufficient for a music server and frees up your main PC from music chores.  The Satellite SFF PC makes a nice little server  - snappy, reliable, and quiet (external laptop-style power supply).  I keep it with my other PC equipment, and connect it to the LAN, so the Logitech Transporter connects over wireless to stream the music.  Keeps the listening room silent and avoids all the issues of trying to get good quality sound directly off a PC.

[kgturner]

i've built a couple of computers in the past. i'm currently still using the P4 3.06 XP system I built years ago as my main computer. i'm in desperate need of an upgrade, but it'll have to wait. your experience sounds nothing like i've ever encountered. i buy my components from either newegg or tigerdirect, reading the reviews of each component (particularly motherboards).

i'll have to agree with kevin that you should keep everything simple in the beginning. just get the main components together and the boot drive/os stable and running smoothly. then add your extra drives and configure your raid settings from there.

kevin t

[bpape]

I agree totally with the power supply.  Get a good one with plenty of juice. I've had great luck with Antec at very reasonable prices.

I usually buy from Mwave.com.  For an extra $7, they will install the CPU, heat sink, and RAM in the MB and do a burn in and test it for you so no DOA's.  Well worth it IMO.

I've always had good luck with Asus MB's.  For RAM, nothing fancy, just good, lifetime warranty Kingston.  In all my years, I've never, ever had a set fail on me.  There is 'faster' stuff out there but in this application, you really don't need it.  The more you push the RAM, the more likely issues you'll have.  Just run standard timings and voltages.

Until the Intel I7 came out, I almost always ran AMD processors when possible. Same performance or better for less money.  The i7 is just a killer chip though.  We built my son a box last year with the i7 and 6GB RAM. That thing is just silly fast - but he's using it for gaming and programming so it needs more horsepower than a simple music server.

One other thing - watch the case you buy.  Get something that allows good air flow and put a good fan in it.  Heat is your enemy.

Bryan

[jqp]

Funny you should ask    I just built this system last night...and typing this from the new system!

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79655.0

It took me about 3 hours to remove the old motherboard with processor and memory intact, clean out the old case (had to remove a fan and clean it also), read through the motherboard basics, put the processor, heatsink, and RAM onto the mothjerboard, seat it in the case properly, screw the motherboard in, reattach the drives, mouse and keyboard, old videocard back in, attach monitor, and finally power cord, and swith the powersupply on. Booted first time thankfully. Then I had to tweak the memory settings in the BIOS to get it to pick up the memory settings.

Next installatoion of Windows 7 had a problem! Apparently there was no driver for Win 7 64bit for my IDE Liteon DVD burner. Windows would expand files, but when it began the install it said "no driver found for CD/DVD" and when I searched a couple places (not on the internet yet) I could not find it. Hopped on the net on another machine and looked up the error - ended up using a SATA DVD burner instead and everything went smoothly from there. Finished up by loading AVGFree, Firefox, and doing the updates before calling it a night.

System builds have advantages and disadvantages. You can pick what you want to build your perfect system, or your cheap system. There are some things you just cant get with a prebuilt system. The duration of the build is one X factor. The can take a few hours as mine did last night, or go a couple of days trying to work out some issue. If you have DOA parts, then you are looking at another few days minimum. But DOAs can happen with any new system purchase, including Apple.

I have learned that it is better to have extra parts on hand! I would buy them if you do not have them around, and you can return them if you don't end up using them. I have powercords from over the years, but power supply, hard drive, dvd drive are always handy. Luckily I had a DVD drive I had bought a few months ago when I ordered a few other things. I hate to have to go to best buy and pay triple the price for parts, even if they have what i need.

Another X factor is tha when moving from one major version of OS to another means some things will just not work anymore, software and hardware.

Power supplies have come a long way since the old generic 300 watt AT power supplies. The new ones are more sophisticated in the areas of components, and power handling, connectivity to system components, etc.

In the end building a PC is analogous to building a sound system - it may be pretty easy or it may become more complicated, and experience and extra gear laying around can really come in handy.

[Kevin Haskins]

RAID on the motherboard is rarely a good idea.  If something goes wrong, you are on the same system you need to use to recover with - too many variables for reliability, particularly since the chip/driver combination is probably unique - if you have to get a new motherboard, it is unlikely to be able to read the RAID configured drivers correctly anyway.

After building PC's since the pirate BIOS days in mid-80's Hong Kong, I have come to the conclusion that the PC should be as simple as possible when it comes to drive geometry, and that a good NAS is the way to go for RAID storage.

My latest build is running Windows 7 64bit, on an ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 motherboard, Intel Core I7 920, 6 GB DDR3 RAM, ATI 5850 Graphics card, Western Digital Raptor 300GB for the system drive, and a Seagate 1TB for local storage.  NAS is Netgear ReadyNAS NV+.   

I rip CD's on the main system, and then a Syncback SE job copies the files to the NAS, which then backs itself up to a portable 640GB Seagate FreeAgent.  A mite paranoid, but experience says 3 copies minimum to survive "events" and my own stupidity.

BTW, I found that a small from factor PC (SFF) running VORTEXBOX is sufficient for a music server and frees up your main PC from music chores.  The Satellite SFF PC makes a nice little server  - snappy, reliable, and quiet (external laptop-style power supply).  I keep it with my other PC equipment, and connect it to the LAN, so the Logitech Transporter connects over wireless to stream the music.  Keeps the listening room silent and avoids all the issues of trying to get good quality sound directly off a PC.

Yes... the KISS is as near to a universal principle as I have found.   I don't use RAID either.... one disk and ghost it on a regular basis to another system drive in case I need to recover.   Drives are cheap so there is no reason not to stick an extra in the case and backup the entire boot drive on a regular basis. 

[Kevin Haskins]

I usually buy from Mwave.com.  For an extra $7, they will install the CPU, heat sink, and RAM in the MB and do a burn in and test it for you so no DOA's.  Well worth it IMO.

I've always had good luck with Asus MB's.  For RAM, nothing fancy, just good, lifetime warranty Kingston.  In all my years, I've never, ever had a set fail on me.  There is 'faster' stuff out there but in this application, you really don't need it.  The more you push the RAM, the more likely issues you'll have.  Just run standard timings and voltages.


One other thing - watch the case you buy.  Get something that allows good air flow and put a good fan in it.  Heat is your enemy.

Bryan

I'd agree... all good advice.   I doubt they do much more that a POST and some sort of memory timing test but for someone doing a build it is a total PIA to have to return memory or MB because you cannot even get the thing to boot.   For a newbie... it is one less thing to have to figure out.     

I'd also say don't overclock.   Stock settings and conservative use of the hardware will lend itself to much fewer stability issues.   Blow the dust-bunnies out of your machine every 6-months.... that helps keep the thing much cooler over its lifetime.

My current system (loading XP now) is $170 for the case, PS, MB, video card and processor.   I had some extra memory laying around so I decided to update the kids computer.     You can build a perfectly suitable machine these days for dirt cheap.   

[HT cOz]

I also like Asus MBs. I also like to read user reviews on new egg. Like some users have said make sure the componets are compatable.

[xsajohn]

I also like Asus MBs. I also like to read user reviews on new egg. Like some users have said make sure the componets are compatable.

+1 for Asus MB's. I've built at least 5 PCs over the past few years w Asus - never a problem. That being said, the initial BIOS releases are often buggy. Update it a few times in the first few months (esp. w overclocking) and it's all good.

[skunark]

it's practice.....Read reviews, take notes... don't skimp on stuff... RAM is the easy example.. pay the extra $10 for RAM with the liftetime warrenty.....

[Elizabeth]

Even I built my own computer out of parts from New Egg.
I just read the computer boards (Like Tom's hardware) for a few months to learn what was what. Scoped out New Egg and bought, ASUS, AMD. Put it together no problem.
I agree KISS is important. Skip the fancy RAID array, and multi boot OS.
Back up a lot on a separate hard drive.
(That computer, now about ten years old, sits in closet). I use a laptop, but sooner or later I will start over finding out what is what, and build again.
Next time for a media server computer.

[skunark]

Even I built my own computer out of parts from New Egg.
I just read the computer boards (Like Tom's hardware) for a few months to learn what was what. Scoped out New Egg and bought, ASUS, AMD. Put it together no problem.
I agree KISS is important. Skip the fancy RAID array, and multi boot OS.
Back up a lot on a separate hard drive.
(That computer, now about ten years old, sits in closet). I use a laptop, but sooner or later I will start over finding out what is what, and build again.
Next time for a media server computer.

Hrm.. a gal after my heart here..   

[tonyptony]

All good advice. I've been building my own PCs since the second half of the 1980s and have rarely had a problem. Even before the days of web based support there were (and still are) newsgroups where other enthusiasts provide their experiences and recommendations. IMO the best sources nowadays for this sort of thing are

http://www.overclock.net/

and

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/

There are one or two more, but if you're trying to put something together and you don't know which board to use, whether RAID works properly on a given board, what's the right size supply to use with a given equipment combination, the right case for the best airflow, etc post some questions at these sites. There are a lot of people who've tried a lot of stuff there. And if you do a search you'll get a wealth on info.

[Niteshade]

Some tips:

1] Eliminate components that create bottle necks.
   A. slow and/or not enough RAM
   B. cheap or on-board video cards
   C. cheap motherboards with low buss throughput
 

2] Don't go fan crazy! Computers are air cleaners and caked dust kills them.

3] Use low wattage cores (under 95W) when possible

4] Don't pay a little and expect allot. You do get what you pay for!

5] Favorite board? I don't have one. Every manufacturer creates duds. Watch reviews for bad batches. Ultimately, you will see the board no longer being stocked.

6] Ram w/ heatsinks? Not always worth it or necessary. Go w/ Crucial if you can.

[MerlinWerks]

Lots of good advice here. I've built a dozen or so systems over the years and have never encountered the difficulties you've described. I too am an ASUS MB fan, no RAID, I use a JBOD array (Just a Bunch Of Drives) and I'm a big fan of Ghost 2003 to keep my base config backed up and I use Syncback SE for file backups. Everything that I want saved (bookmarks, email, files) I keep on a separate drive from the OS. That way if something screws up my existing install, bad driver, virus, etc. or even if I just want to try out a new program, I can easily "Ghost" back to my clean base configuration. If I decide I want to keep that new program, I just create a new Ghost image which becomes my new base configuration, takes less than 5 min