To Grill Cloth or Not To Grill Cloth ??

eclein · « **on:** 31 Mar 2010, 05:13 pm »

I'm finding that removing the Grill clothes from my speakers seems to make for a better sound. Is it a known thing that removing them makes for better sound or is this the dreaded placebo effect?
Thanks
Ed L.

Nuance · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 Mar 2010, 05:20 pm »

It depends on the design, as some are engineered to be listened to with the grill on. In my situation, removing the grills makes a very tiny difference in the upper mirange, lower HF's (I can hear it immediately when I remove the cover). Whether I notice much difference at my listening position I couldn't tell ya.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 Mar 2010, 05:25 pm »

TRUST YOUR EARS! Frequently the grill cloth makes a speaker sound worse. There are a few cases where the speaker manufacturer designed the speaker to work with the grill in place. When the grill cloth is removed from these speakers they actually sound and measure worse than when the grill cloth is in place. My speakers didn't even come with a grill cloth, I also do not have any small children in the house.
Scotty

eclein · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Mar 2010, 05:45 pm »

OK..then I'm not imagining it...I've listened both ways and hear a difference immediately as Nuance mentioned. No kids here just old folks..haha!! Mine will remain off then!! Thanks guys for the affirmation.

BobM · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 Mar 2010, 05:55 pm »

Depends on how the designer designed the speaker. Mine sounds better to me without the grill cloth, but I have heard speakers that need a pillow over them to tame the top end. I would leave the grill cloth on with those, for sure, and maybe add an extra towel too.

toobluvr · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 Mar 2010, 06:24 pm »

Quote from: BobM on 31 Mar 2010, 05:55 pm

Depends on how the designer designed the speaker. Mine sounds better to me without the grill cloth, but I have heard speakers that need a pillow over them to tame the top end. I would leave the grill cloth on with those, for sure, and maybe add an extra towel too.

For that kindof a speaker, a dumpster works better than a pillow.

mchuckp · « **Reply #6 on:** 31 Mar 2010, 07:17 pm »

I have some Salk Songtowers (Ribbon Tweeter version) and definitely hear the difference with grills off and the owner (Jim Salk) tells you to remove them for critical listening. they are magnetic and easy to remove and put back on. I typically leave them on more for protection when not in use or just watching TV. Figure at least might help with a flying dog toy or something.

Nuance · « **Reply #7 on:** 31 Mar 2010, 10:30 pm »

Quote from: mchuckp on 31 Mar 2010, 07:17 pm

I have some Salk Songtowers (Ribbon Tweeter version) and definitely hear the difference with grills off and the owner (Jim Salk) tells you to remove them for critical listening. they are magnetic and easy to remove and put back on. I typically leave them on more for protection when not in use or just watching TV. Figure at least might help with a flying dog toy or something.

These were the same speakers I was speaking of. I also measured a difference between having them on and off. So there ya go; I'm not just hearing things.

tesseract · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 07:51 pm »

The difference in sound isn't so much from the grill cloth, but from the diffraction off the frame of the grill.

Wayner · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 08:23 pm »

As a general rule, at least that I have found, if you listen to your speakers in the sweet spot, there is generally not that much difference with grill on or grill off "except" if the grill fabric is not a true open weave, meant for use as an audio speaker grill cloth. I think the problem comes into being with the grill frame, not the cloth itself. As an example, my newly refurbished Dynaco A25Xls have a new cabinet design that is first, mirror image of each other, (originals were not), secondly, the lip of the cabinet in the front was removed (which I think interfered somewhat with imaging), and 3rdly, the grill was simply done away with (the tweeter has a preformed expanded metal protective grill).

The result is an enormous soundstage. I can literally hear 3D stereo sitting at my computer in front of the right speaker. So, to that end, I will say that it is not the grill cloth that is the problem, rather the frame (and associated, weird lips, etc), the screw up extreme off-axis response of mid/high frequencies that are the sound "candy" of any quality speaker.

This is another reason why I like my JMLab/Focal speakers, as the speaker with the grill on does not cover the tweeter (a clever design), thus giving it a bit more wife acceptance factor and not harassing the high frequencies of the driver.

Wayner

srb · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 08:33 pm »

Quote from: tesseract on 10 Apr 2010, 07:51 pm

The difference in sound isn't so much from the grill cloth, but from the diffraction off the frame of the grill.

I have experimented holding several different samples of grille cloths in front of both dome and ribbon tweeters with no frame involved. My ears could detect a reduction in high frequencies, very slight with a thin very sheer sample, but more noticeable with a slightly tighter knit one (that was sold as grille cloth).

I have also noticed this slight reduction in high frequencies on B&W speakers that have a frameless metal grille over the top mounted tweeter.

I couldn't detect any difference with the midbass drivers.

Steve

low.pfile · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 08:36 pm »

tesseract brings up a good point: grille frames can cause diffraction, reflection, etc. and all frames are not created equal.

The grilles on my devores are off by default. slight loss in the upper freq when on.

But I am wary now when I have little visitors at my place.... I was at a party last week and witnessed a wandering child poking in the dust cover of a woofer. I stopped him and called for the parent who had his back turned. I had just help the owner of the speakers acquire replacement tweeters for her old B&Ws. good thing they were not the target of the young sprite. Keep em off but don't toss em!

Kinger · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 09:01 pm »

I am a Salk SongTower with ribbon tweeter owner as well and I'm with both Nuance and mchuckp that a difference can be heard between grills on and off during critical listening. With the grills off the imaging improves in my listening space.

mjosef · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 09:17 pm »

Say NO 2 the cloth...to be naked is to BE.

mark funk · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 09:24 pm »

I have had the grill and cloth off my Dahlquist DQ10s for over 20 years. I think they sound better with them removed.

toobluvr · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 09:26 pm »

Quote from: mjosef on 10 Apr 2010, 09:17 pm

Say NO 2 the cloth...to be naked is to BE.

Sometimes to be naked is to be ashamed. It all depends on the driver you're workin with!

hifitommy · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Apr 2010, 08:55 pm »

removing the grill for the most part opens up the sound both in extension and spatially. for that reason, i have always removed the grill when i can. on my MMGs however, i dont. it is not easy to do so and i have 4 cats which coerces me to keep them on. the tweeter is so large that it probably wouldnt make much of a difference. if i thought the socks caused diffraction effects, i might proceed in that direction.

every other speaker i have owned has removable grills and off they come. for those speakers that have been engineered for the colth to remain in place, i would have to try both ways and would even then probably go without unlelss it proved to be sonically distracting with them off .

i have made the suggestion to my audio frineds to go grill-less and most have gravitated in that direction.

DanTheMan · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Apr 2010, 12:33 am »

Anyone remember the grill foam that used to come on some speakers? I'd actually like to find a source for that. If anyone know where to find it I'd be happy to learn of it. With that stuff you could keep the diffraction issue out of it.

Dan

*Scotty* · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Apr 2010, 03:31 am »

Here is a link to reticulated foam. http://site.iwebcenters.com/afoammart_2/specialtyitems.html
Scotty

DanTheMan · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Apr 2010, 04:15 am »

Thanks Scotty!

Dan