[*Scotty*]

That's the rub isn't it.
Scotty

[nonoise]

I guess it all depends on how its implemented.
I went from Hornshoppe Horns to Tonian Labs TL-D1s, which use a widebander with a super ribbon tweeter and it sounds just fine, thank you. I have no idea where the crossover is but it is seamless.

[NYCMachine]

Check out this site, if you haven't already.
ejjordan.co.uk
Seems like an interesting way to go.
They only have two speakers, but you can run them full.
No crossover to interfere with the high end.
You can get low down to 40 with the other.

        NYC

[Danny Richie]

I guess it all depends on how its implemented.
I went from Hornshoppe Horns to Tonian Labs TL-D1s, which use a widebander with a super ribbon tweeter and it sounds just fine, thank you. I have no idea where the crossover is but it is seamless.

It may sound great to you, but there is no way to implement that so that it does not cause a peak and a dip (as much as 15db) in the response across the top octave and possibly the top octave and a half.

[Mr Content]

It may sound great to you

Isn't that what its all about......really, we are not talking about producing a speaker for commercial reasons,  and honestly , all this is so subjective. Everyone has their own idea of what is good or great. I have tried a few tweets with my OB's, but have not liked them, but several people who I trust, said they liked it. Now I remain tweeterless,.......but that just the I like it.
Roy I suggest you have a play with it. Low cost tweeters will give you an idea of the effect, and whether you are heading down the right road. I found that tailoring components with the speaker can do just as good a job, e.g., my chip amp can be a bit bright on some speakers, but is just right with my OB's. Valve selection with my tube amp, has given me the same variety of signatures.
Experience can be a very good teacher

Mr C

[roymail]

Thanks, Nigel... 

[Danny Richie]

My mom thinks her radio/CD player sounds great. And for her it does.

But here we have a poster asking a question...

Will a ribbon help or ruin single driver sound? 

So I think actually explaining what the real effects are is a pretty valid reply.

[mcgsxr]

Danny that is a fair assessment, even if you are putting some of the respondents in an odd position (not knowing your Mom or her hearing abilities, tough to decide if we should be impressed or depressed to be compared to her, if we find certain speakers sounding good to us!  Just having fun here, not looking to start anything).

As a guy that designs speakers for commercial success (and I have heard some of yours - OB7's), I know that you can hear well, and I respect your approach - that all said, I did build my own speakers that make me happy, that I know would not likely measure all that well (another thread altogether of course), so I think you are polarizing to make a point.

Roymail - the more you ask, the more you will get - at some point it is often just fun (assuming you are building for yourself) to just wade in there and experiment with some affordable drivers and materials, and see for yourself.

Tough to get it perfect (ask any commercial designer), but not that hard to build something that will make you happy.

As for the original question - I cannot comment - I have not tried a tweeter with my own "single" driver speakers - woofers yes, but the upper end is fine for me at this time.

I have heard some great 2 ways using ribbons, so I can only imagine that it could be integrated well with a wide range driver to positive end result.

[Danny Richie]

Further thoughts...

For those wanting to try adding a tweeter, super tweeter, or ribbon driver to a full range driver:

Try allowing the tweeter to face up or towards the rear. In doing this you have not created any adverse effects to the on axis response, but you do add some extension, sense of air and space, and some positive effects to the sound stage and imaging.

You can also play with the output level of the added tweeter a lot more with it facing away from the listener and play it a little hotter than if it were aimed right at you.

For those that can, try it an see.

[*Scotty*]

When people report success with adding a tweeter even though they have induced a major frequency response anomaly,one can only wonder how good it might have sounded without the problem. This is sort of like having a piece of gear that is "broken" and not knowing it. You don't know how good it could sound if it was working right. This is analogous to replacing a good sounding preamp with a much better sounding one. The performance gap between the two is so great it makes the former "good" sounding preamp sound broken by comparison. In essence it was "broken" but you didn't realize it until it was replaced. I would have to vote for Danny's approach to adding a tweeter to full-range speaker. It ought to avoid a lot problems that are caused by aiming the add-on tweeter
directly at the listener.
Scotty

[JLM]

BTW the the E J Jordan manufacturer's specifications (especially the bass extension) have traditionally been taken as very optimistic by most independent observers.  And with the currently weak dollar, not much of a bargain either.

It's hard (in theory impossible) for any two driver system to match the imaging/coherency of a single driver (preaching to the choir here).  And I'd hesitate to muck things up with an inferior ribbon.  Better to put the money into a better driver to start with.  And frankly many single driver designs are priced much more "realistically" than comparable multi-driver designs (probably because there's less "mystery" within the component).

[Danny Richie]

BTW the the E J Jordan manufacturer's specifications (especially the bass extension) have traditionally been taken as very optimistic by most independent observers.  And with the currently weak dollar, not much of a bargain either.

I have to agree with that one. I worked with TB several years ago when I was working on designing the Epiphany Audio product line. They made some 4" full range drivers that I did some work with, and I did A/B them with some of the Jordan's and the Jordan's got smoked.

It's hard (in theory impossible) for any two driver system to match the imaging/coherency of a single driver (preaching to the choir here).  And I'd hesitate to muck things up with an inferior ribbon.  Better to put the money into a better driver to start with.  And frankly many single driver designs are priced much more "realistically" than comparable multi-driver designs (probably because there's less "mystery" within the component).

I guess I'll have to stand in disagreement with you there. I have had a lot of full range drivers through here, and currently have some FR125's setting on my desk as computer speakers. I have also had them in my main system. And while they are very good, especially in the mid-range, any of my inexpensive two way kits out perform them in every way, including imaging.

You guys have to keep in mind that a full range driver still has inductive reactance and that does cause a shift in phase. Some well designed two way speakers can have less shift in phase and be more perfect in that regard.

[roymail]

Danny said, "You can also play with the output level of the added tweeter a lot more with it facing away from the listener and play it a little hotter than if it were aimed right at you."

I agree with that and here's why.  I had a diy 2-way that didn't sound just right, so I moved the tweeter from the front to the top.  I'm not sure why, but it sounded way better. 

[Duke]

For those wanting to try adding a tweeter, super tweeter, or ribbon driver to a full range driver:

Try allowing the tweeter to face up or towards the rear. In doing this you have not created any adverse effects to the on axis response, but you do add some extension, sense of air and space, and some positive effects to the sound stage and imaging.

You can also play with the output level of the added tweeter a lot more with it facing away from the listener and play it a little hotter than if it were aimed right at you.

For those that can, try it an see.

I agree with your recommendation, Danny.  My first commercial product used an 8" Fostex  augmented by a rear-firing supertweeter.   The last (and best) time I heard Terry Cain demo a pair of his speakers, he'd snuck in a rear-firing supertweeter.   

[Mr Content]

My mom thinks her radio/CD player sounds great. And for her it does.

But here we have a poster asking a question...

So I think actually explaining what the real effects are is a pretty valid reply.

Thats cool Danny, we appreciate you adding to the discussion. Like I said experience is a good teacher.......and you have plenty, I think it is good for people to have a go and find out these things for themselves.
Going completely OT for a moment, Danny do you do any line arrays still?

Mr C

[Danny Richie]

Danny do you do any line arrays still?

I have LS-6 and LS-9 kits in stock.

[jrebman]

Roy,

Just try it.  I used to think it would "ruin" the sound, but I've been through a parade of speakers here over the last 5 or 6 years -- single drrivers, two-ways, etc. -- and nothing, and I mean nothing comes as lose to a more natural and listenable sound than the Tonian TL-D1s I have.  Regardless of what the theory says, these are absolutely seamless and sound like single-driver systems from a coherence point-of-view, but full ranges in terms of top and bottom extension, dynamics, and have no audible (regardless of whether they are measurable or not) peaks, never, never shout, and with my ears being extremely sensitive to bad tweeters, the easiest to listen-to speakers I've ever had.  I point them straight ahead and definitely don't subscribe to the Cardas ratio or equilateral triangle setup, meaning that my speakers are closer together than either of those practices and soundstage is as wide as my 16 foot wide room and well into my backdoor neighbor's yard for depth.

I absolutely despised ribbon tweeters before I got this speaker, which is why I put it off for over a year before deciding to get a pair to demo.  At this point, I can only imagine going further up the Tonian line, or to front-loaded horns, but any of those options are way beyond my budget and would not work in my space anyway.

Also, regarding HF response, Dantheman hit the nail on the head with the links to the papers at Stanford, etc.  Whether you can "hear" anything above 10-12 khz, there is an effect which cannot be denied and definitely adds positively to the listening experience.  We don't listen to fundamentals, but harmonics (or overtones) and their time-domain variations, and those are what define the sound of a particular instrument.  Different modalities also produce different characteristic pattarns of these fundamentals, and that's why a instrument that is struck sounds very different from one that is blown, vs. one that is bowed, vs. one that is plucked, etc., and this is where that ability to deliver more harmonic information beyond the fundamental in essence, gives you more of a realistic presentation of the instruments and music.

So, go for it, but be patient, as integrating a ribbon with a cone is not always straightforward.

Good luck,

Jim

[roymail]

Whether you can "hear" anything above 10-12 khz, there is an effect which cannot be denied and definitely adds positively to the listening experience.

Jim, thanks for your very helpful post.  The Tonian TL-D1's are what initially got my attention.  I don't know much about ribbons, so I'd guess it's just capped and padded to match the Fostex.  I doubt that I can duplicate it or even come close, but I may try anyway. 

[versus rider]

Hey!

     That would make it a 1.5 way I think

     Well, actually that is what I have now 

      Anyway, back to the OP's Q. I would also say depend on how high you are going to xover it. I added inexpensive Fostex FT17H Horn on top of my 167E. I xovered them very high with a single .47uf cap, a 1st order gentle slope. Yes, I could hear some lower freq when they are run by themselves but it was very low and once their in the system they do not call attention at all. Basically I'm using them as super duper tweeters

      I could live with just the main drivers but the super tweeters do make sound a bit better overall. I say go for if your main drivers do go up high already. It will take some try with the xover and SPL matching but I think it worth it. Especially if you have a good vinyl rig and cart that have good high extension way up there.

Take care,
Buddy

:thumb:me too, I have css fr125sr in diy bass reflex with the FT17H with 1.5uF cap and L pad, sounds great. Remove the horn tweeter and you can hear the hf laid back.

[planet10]

he Tonian TL-D1

That has to be an FE207 in those to get any bass. I wonder what Tony could do with an EnABLed unit?

I wonder what he is going to do now that FE207 is discontinued.

dave