[jb]

I’m a horn guy. Except for a brief flirtation with planars, I’ve always had horns. A few years ago, after reading many positive reviews, I wanted to try some full rangers. I built a pair of Nagoaka D101a (Swan) equipped with the FE108Sigma.



The build went well but the sound was disappointing. Perhaps I did something wrong or I was expecting too much. When powered with my Joto monoblocks the frequency response was very lumpy. When powered with my Spectral DMA-100, the lumpiness was gone but the overall sound was not satisfying. Besides, it seemed absurd to drive a tiny 4” speaker with a 100wpc sand amp. I switched back to the Jotas and added a Zobel. That cured the lumpiness but there was still a problem. If all I listened to was “little girl with ukulele” the speakers would have been great but I prefer a broader spectrum of music. There was a discontinuity between the direct radiated sound from the front of the speaker and the sound coming from the rear horn. It was particularly disturbing listening to instruments, such as guitar and lute, because the crossover frequency was in the middle of their normal range. The same was true for male voices.

I played with changing the throat area and adding stuffing behind the speaker but nothing I tried cured the discontinuity. Now that I look back on it, it’s obvious. The sound coming from the front and back are coming from two different sources and, of course, sound different in addition to the time delay. I thought about building a front-loaded horn using the later generation FE108EZ but I could never generate enough enthusiasm to start the project. I still have the unused drivers.

What do you think? Should I try again? If so, with what? I really don’t want to buy additional drivers and I am now a little leery of front- or rear-loaded horns because I doubt the sound from the front will ever seamlessly integrate with the sound from the rear.

[DaveC113]

Honestly, I've never heard a BLH I'd consider world class. I think subwoofers integrate better than the low-end output from the horn, so you're better off using a conventional box and augmenting with a sub, so long as you can get the box output down past 80 Hz or so.

OB also works, but is going to be more difficult to implement because the wide range won't extend down as low. However, with today's digital x-overs it's certainly do-able.

An example is Feastrex, they have been at RMAF for the last 3 years. First 2 years they used BLHs and a huge vented box for the 9" driver that wasn't tuned well. You could hear that the drivers had a huge potential but the implementation was problematic at best.  Last year they brought an OB, 5" field coil with 2 15" woofers per side. X-over was a custom digital job, and these speakers finally achieved "the goal". The 15s were integrated perfectly to the 5" wide-range driver, and they had a world-class speaker.

[Bemopti123]

This is the second reading I have about those Nagaoka horns being sonicaly disappointing, and this goes back to the early 2000s in the web, perhaps you are the same person who wrote about it or you might be the second. 

More than just the original Nagaoka swan design, I do believe that those drivers that you have used with them are not known to be good sounding drivers, even Ed from the Hornshoppe decided to swap them for a different model afterwards. 

Another Nagaoka I did read about is a monstrous 6 1/2 feet horn that JohnK has built around a SE 5" Fostex drivers, the speaker which has been available in Gon since last year and is not selling due to its prohibitive size perhaps shipping hassle.  According to his description, this design seems to work well. 

Perhaps it is better than you invest some $ in a larger 8" Fostex driver, the new 207E/206Es are forgiving of box types and mistakes and they do seem to be universally known for their sound quality.  You can slap them on any type of large boxes, fiddle with the port and be done with it..then if you are still tempted to squeeze the nth quality from them, do cone surgery and finally get them EnBld?

[rjbond3rd]

Two of the most ear-pleasing speakers I ever heard were both BLH's (both on http://www.frugal-horn.com and specifically, Austin 166 and Harvey).  Some people just like horns! 

I have those same FE108-Sigma (original)  drivers and it's going to be tough getting bass out of them in any cab.  I heard the Swans with the newer 108's and they did sound really nice and balanced, with just a touch of "echo" to my ears in the lower octaves due to the design.

An OB with woofer is a good way to get a lot of bass easily.  Another option would be a BLH with a (bigger or same size but less efficient) driver that can go much lower than the FE108-Sigma. The Austin mated to a sub is truly full-range.  BiB's work but in my opinion, for really good bass you have to either use an 8" driver or a lower-efficiency (non-Fostex) like the Jordan JX92S or a Mark Audio with a low FS.

Other possible options: use an amp with a lower damping factor (perhaps your first amp does already).  Or try is to cobble up a wider baffle for your Swans to close the gap presumably caused by baffle step).  Lastly, how close is the build of the original 108 Swan to that of the newer 108's?  Might be worth at least trying a swap of drivers since you already have them.

[rjbond3rd]

...I do believe that those drivers that you have used with them are not known to be good sounding drivers, even Ed from the Hornshoppe decided to swap them for a different model afterwards. 

Another Nagaoka I did read about is a monstrous 6 1/2 feet horn that JohnK has built around a SE 5" Fostex drivers...

Perhaps it is better than you invest some $ in a larger 8" Fostex driver, the new 207E/206Es are forgiving of box types and mistakes and they do seem to be universally known for their sound quality.  You can slap them on any type of large boxes, fiddle with the port and be done with it..then if you are still tempted to squeeze the nth quality from them, do cone surgery and finally get them EnBld?

Hi Bemopti123,

The discontinued FE108-Sigma is definitely sweet-sounding.  The FE126 has a larger cone area, lower Fs and higher Qts so it gets a bit more bass in that particular design.

I agree on trying an 8" driver as one option but the FE207E was just discontinued and the Fe206E is also discontinued but replaced by the FE20En which has only half the excursion, so probably not the best thing for a ported box (it wants a horn even more than the FE206E).

If more bass is desired, one of the new Lake District designs might be the way to go (and there's a Nessie, similar to JohnK's build):

http://www.creativesound.ca/downloads.html (Lake District Designs)

[jb]

Thanks for the feedback. I tried the newer drivers in the Swans. Overall they sounded a little better but I cannot abide the discontinuity. Maybe it’s my Swans, or my room, or maybe it’s just me. Whatever, I thought I’d see if anything could be done to give the Swans another chance before I chopped them up for firewood. It's been a long, cold winter.

[planet10]

More than just the original Nagaoka swan design, I do believe that those drivers that you have used with them are not known to be good sounding drivers, even Ed from the Hornshoppe decided to swap them for a different model afterwards. 

Ed changed the driver from FE108S to FE108eS because the latter were discontinued. He was never happy with the loss of efficiency.

I heard these in a set of Ed horns and they had the same VC former oil can resonance issue, same as the RS 40-1197 and the classic FE103A. Otherwise a fine driver but will never be overlly dynamic.

This colouration is what led us to develop phase plugs, demand for which kickstarted planet10-hifi.

dave

[chrisby]

Ed changed the driver from FE108S to FE108eS because the latter were discontinued. He was never happy with the loss of efficiency.

I heard these in a set of Ed horns and they had the same VC former oil can resonance issue, same as the RS 40-1197 and the classic FE103A. Otherwise a fine driver but will never be overlly dynamic.

This colouration is what led us to develop phase plugs, demand for which kickstarted planet10-hifi.

dave

I think you mean the former  (FE108s) were discontinued - and IINM, Ed experimented with other Fostex drivers in his Horns besides the 108Sigma before finding "IT" - y'all remember his excitement at that announcement, and the temporary supply shortage of drivers when he offered his upgrade to all existing owners?

No doubt the FE126E (stock or otherwise) delivers the most impressive performance of any of the 3 named drivers I've heard in this design during the past decade.


However, there is something rather more seductive about the 108Sigma, and while it's doubtful you'll ever get it to deliver the dynamics, bass extension or upper midrange presence of the 126E, there are plenty of designs in which it (Sigma) performs well - particularly when relieved of heavy lifting below around 100Hz or so.

and BTW, thanks Ed for the inspiration for many DIY / small commercial enterprises to pursue their own, equally valid vision

[JLM]

I've seen this design several times, but never heard them.  From the outside appearance I'd expect "lumpy" frequency response (no gradually expanding horn, evidence of a tuned pipe or transmission line) and a lack of dynamics (from a small driver - they tend to be less efficient and can't push much air).

I'd look towards the Fostex factory recommended cabinet designs (which tend to be fairly well received).  Another good option is to visit Dave's (planet10) website as he has been a leader in applications of small Fostex wide-bandwidth driver designs.

[rjbond3rd]

The Swan is one of Nagaoka's classic designs, and it's definitely a horn (or some would say horn/TL hybrid).  It's a series of expansions that approximates an exponential horn to my untrained eye.  There's a whole mythology behind the design (came to him in a dream) if I recall correctly.

I thought the narrow baffle would be a deal-breaker, but the one I heard (built by Serenechaos) sounded really smooth, not at all lumpy in the bass.  I just thought I heard a very slight "echo" in the bass chamber but that could easily be damped down, assuming I even heard it correctly.

I don't think it will ever rock the house but it sounds much better than I imagined it could.  If you see the diagram for the build, it's a really ingenious work of art.