[mchuckp]

Just moved into our new house and set up my new room.  I'm exploring room treatments and have been chatting via email with one of GIK's designers.  He has seen numerous pix and a drawing of my room.  Things sound excellent but there are definitely some trouble spots that could help things.  One of the biggest things I noticed was the left corner has some serious bass loading.  In my past two apartments, I had my speakers about 18" off the wall.  Had pretty adequate bass in this set up.  When I moved in here, I used that as a starting point and the bass was WAY too much.  I toyed around with distances between 12-45" and found that at about 35" off the wall, the bass is about right.

One of the spots he is recommending me put some panels is directly behind each speaker and just to the left of my left speaker.  He also recommended starting with bass trap panels on the rear wall behind the seating position to stop front to back slap.  At my starting budget ($500), he said this would be the best set up to start.  He said my next purchase should be a bass trap for the corner behind my left speaker in between the two panels. 

This leads to my actual question.  Does the transmission line design rely on reflection to create bass?  Or can it do it completely on it's own and will achieve the rated 42hz even in a very well treated room?

Just want to make sure I'm taking the right approach for the speakers I have.  I'm not a bass freak by any means by want to make sure I'm not going to make my sound somewhat anemic by killing all the bass in that corner.

Hope my question makes sense.  I'm new to treatments and I firmly believe that well placed treatments will help my sound tremendous.  However, they are not a cheap thing to get into and again want to make sure I do it right and the bass traps are one thing that is a bit fuzzy to me.

Here's a few pix and a drawing (by drawing I mean actual drawing )


From Back Wall


Behind speakers looking back


Shot showing side area next to right speaker


My hand drawn room diagram.  Who needs Autocad.
BTW, it is to scale.  1 block=1'

Thanks,
Mike

[Nuance]

Panels behind the speakers and listening position will certainly help out, and bass traps in any corners you find will as well. 

Room treatments and bass traps don't ruin the bass response of any speaker; they simply absorb reflected sound and reduce ringing (a good thing).  You don't need to worry about the SongTower's not providing adequate bass if you treat the room. 

Measuring the room would be the best route to take.  That way you'll be able to listen for and see the issues. 

[warnerwh]

Once you put room treatments in your room you will discover something difficult to explain. You may ask yourself what was I waiting for as many of us have.
Bass traps will reduce peaks and dips to a point where your midrange will be notably cleaner. One thing to remember is even if your speakers are perfectly flat from 20 to 20 your room is causing peaks and dips that are commonly 25-30db. That is not an exaggeration.
If you have ever played with tone controls or an equalizer you can imagine what goes on. It's like letting a 4 year old adjust your equalizer for you.
Bottom line is the best money you could spend on your system now is room treatments. It should be first on everybody's list when putting together a system/room setup. Once you hear the improvement you'll know what people are talking about.
The person that sells GIK panels knows what he is doing so I'd do exactly what he tells you to do. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts once your system is performing somewhere near it's best. Imo I wouldn't worry about measuring your room unless you are just curious. It's kind of scary when you look at a graph of an untreated room. I have a fully treated room and I couldn't care less how it measures.
Many people have said "Wow" after listening to my system for just a few minutes, mainly audiophiles. I have excellent speakers but I assure you it's the room treatments taking the sound in my room to a level that amazes people. The same is going to happen to your system.

[vintagebob]

From Back Wall[/b

Your room...and my room.  I can tell you from experience that more bass trapping means noticeably better bass and clearer sound.

A quote from Ethan (Real Traps)  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76580.msg748283#msg748283

[pjtranby]

Just add a couple more cat tree's, should smooth the bass out nicely . . .

Glad to see you are all moved in to the new place, will have to shoot by soon and have a listen!

PT

[Vulcan00]

MChuckp:
I purchaced by room treatments from GIK  a couple of pannels at a time. First thing the monster bass traps are monsters! If you need bass treatments get theses!  I also got the tri-traps these work great and I like the way they look and are super easy to place and move. Your room looks great to me I wish I had 15' width. plus the  right side space and back wall with stairs and hallway will be good for your sound I think. I might try to shift the  the speakers to the right some and toe them in.  I agree with Nuance the bass treatments do not ruin the bass It makes bass more acurate and provides a multi layered bass, well it did for me.  I can recomend GIK with no reservations.
Harrison

[nyc_paramedic]

I can pretty much agree with the responses you are getting so far. With bass traps you will indeed better and deeper bass.

I would recommend that you investigate all your options when it comes to specific products. Myself, I am a huge fan of Real Traps. Initially, I had ordered 2 panels from both GIK and Real Traps. The quality, attention to detail, materials, and customer service --in my opinion--  of the Real traps  surpasses the GIK's.  The Real Traps look like a professional piece of gear; the GIK's look and feel a bit DIY. 

Yes, my Mini Traps were more expensive than the GIK's, but you get what you pay for. And once you have the proper amount of treatment installed you will instantly realize that your bass traps are a *critical* audiophile component.

Give Ethan at Real Traps a call/email and see what he says. Link: http://www.realtraps.com/index.htm

If you want more details, then PM me.


Disclaimer: Not affiliated in any manner with Real Traps.

[mchuckp]

MChuckp:
I purchaced by room treatments from GIK  a couple of pannels at a time. First thing the monster bass traps are monsters! If you need bass treatments get theses!  I also got the tri-traps these work great and I like the way they look and are super easy to place and move. Your room looks great to me I wish I had 15' width. plus the  right side space and back wall with stairs and hallway will be good for your sound I think. I might try to shift the  the speakers to the right some and toe them in.  I agree with Nuance the bass treatments do not ruin the bass It makes bass more acurate and provides a multi layered bass, well it did for me.  I can recomend GIK with no reservations.
Harrison

They recommended the Monster traps for my rear wall behind the couch.  I was debating just going with the 244 bass traps.  Was wondering if the Monster traps are overkill.  Not getting them, saves me about $100 to put towards a Pillar bass trap for my front left corner.

As of this moment, I was leaning towards:
3 242 panels (1 behind each speaker and one to the left of the left speaker on the side wall)
2 244 bass trap panels (rear wall behind the couch)
1 Pillar bass trap (left corner by left speaker)

I said my budget was $500 to start and will build from there.  His recommendation was the 3 242's in the locations mentioned and 2 monster traps on the back wall.  He said I could get away with the 244's instead of the Monsters, just won't do quite as good a job.   I asked him what my next purchase should be and he mentioned the pillar trap.  I was debating going ahead and getting that now.

[Nuance]

Sounds like a good plan to me.  Personally, I'd go with the monster bass traps even if you plan on crossing over to a subwoofer.  They will better reduce peaks, nulls and ringing.  When treating below 100Hz, the thicker the absorption the better. 

[vintagebob]

The Monster Traps are not overkill but they are BIG.  If they are recommending them then I would get them.

I have one in the back of my room but the two behind my TV made the biggest difference (242s on the wall for comparison).

[Vulcan00]

I dont feel the monster traps are over kill at all. But if your room is not in need of that much bass correction then the 244s should be fine.

I have my 242s at first reflection points? I little confused now about no recomendations for reflection.

I have no experience with the pillar trap.

[Nuance]

I dont feel the monster traps are over kill at all. But if your room is not in need of that much bass correction then the 244s should be fine.

I have my 242s at first reflection points? I little confused now about no recomendations for reflection.

I have no experience with the pillar trap.

The right wall is not close enough to treat that side-wall first reflection, and it appears the left side-wall first reflection will be the glass doors, so he can't really treat that.  The floor ceiling bounce should be treated, though (floor already has a carpet, so a panel or two on the ceiling centered between the speakers and half way between them and the LP would be good).

[Vulcan00]

One of my 2nd refection points is a door. I use a 242 on one of the stands. Its real easy to set it to the side when I need to use the doorway. That may be a possiblity I know you have to have a surface for the trap to set agaisnt I not sure about glass though?

[polarbare]

The right wall is not close enough to treat that side-wall first reflection, and it appears the left side-wall first reflection will be the glass doors, so he can't really treat that.  The floor ceiling bounce should be treated, though (floor already has a carpet, so a panel or two on the ceiling centered between the speakers and half way between them and the LP would be good).

I see some curtains on the ground, if they are heavy enough, it should help.

[vintagebob]

I'm with Vulcan.  Put a 242 panel on a stand for the left side wall reflection.

[Nuance]

One of my 2nd refection points is a door. I use a 242 on one of the stands. Its real easy to set it to the side when I need to use the doorway. That may be a possiblity I know you have to have a surface for the trap to set agaisnt I not sure about glass though?

I forgot they made panels on stands.  Good idea, Vulcan.  The reflection point off the left doors would be a good place to put it.

[mchuckp]

I dont feel the monster traps are over kill at all. But if your room is not in need of that much bass correction then the 244s should be fine.

I have my 242s at first reflection points? I little confused now about no recomendations for reflection.

I have no experience with the pillar trap.

My conversation started with GIK saying I had a $500 budget to get started and would add more later.  So his suggestion above is what he thought would give me the most improvement for the money.  I was surprised he didn't comment that I should get a panel on the stand for the glass door.  I asked him about it and he said don't worry about.  He felt their was other areas more worthy of treatments.  Not sure exactly where my reflection point is, but that is why he has me putting a panel on the wall right next to the left speaker.

So the 3 242's and 2 Monster traps was his recommendation to get me the best improvement for $500.  I asked him what my next purchase would be and he said a pillar trap for the left corner.  So I opted to up my budget and get it now.  Planning on ordering some day this week.  You guys aren't helping, convincing me the Monsters over the 244's is worth it.  I thought the 5.5" for the 244's was thick.  Add 2 more inches for the Monster and you have a seriously thick panel!

Someone asked about the curtain being down.  The anchors fell out that held the rod up.  We've fixed it since then.  I do close the curtains when listening.  They are not thick curtains.  Probably something I should change.  Just moving in, we seem to be spending a fortune on everything.  I definitely see this changing at some point.  The wife loves new decorations.  I just need to tell her they gotta be thick.  Other than that, she can do what she wants.

[gerald porzio]

While you can do too much to deaden a rm., most do way too little.

[Nuance]

I thought the 5.5" for the 244's was thick.  Add 2 more inches for the Monster and you have a seriously thick panel!

And some serious reduction in bass ringing (the thicker the panel, the less ringing.  Also, the thicker the panel, the lower in frequency that can be fixed). 

Someone asked about the curtain being down.  The anchors fell out that held the rod up.  We've fixed it since then.  I do close the curtains when listening.  They are not thick curtains.  Probably something I should change.  Just moving in, we seem to be spending a fortune on everything.  I definitely see this changing at some point.  The wife loves new decorations.  I just need to tell her they gotta be thick.  Other than that, she can do what she wants.

Curtains will help, especially if you get thicker ones.  In the case of the latter, you could probably forgo getting a panel on a stand for the glass doors.  Too much absorption is definitely a bad thing, for what its worth.  I think the 3-242 panels,  2 Monster Traps and Pillar trap will greatly improve things, perhaps enough to the point that its all you'll need.  Don't go nuts, as you'll kill the ambiance and perceived larger sound stage that "good reflections" can produce. 

[Nuance]

P.S.  I'd also definitely put one or two panels on the ceiling.  The floor/ceiling bounce is one of the first reflections you hear, so...