[DBC1]

I have one room that I will be using for now to watch TV and listen to music. It is the living room, which opens to the dining room and kitchen. It is the main living space in the house (other than bedrooms).

The TV (monitor) I bought does not have speakers, so I will be using my sound system whenever I watch television. Other than a FIOS cable box, and a blu-ray player, I do not have any AV equipment yet (except the Polk table radio that I am temporarily using for TV sound).

I also don't have a music library, so I'm not sure yet what my main source will be for music, or what electronics to buy. I could start buying CD's, purchase digital music online, listen to good quality radio (HD, satellite, etc), or a combination. I like different kinds of music, including vocals, blues/jazz, acoustic, some classical, and occasional rock (in that order). I'd also like the TV to sound as good as possible. I watch very few blu-rays or DVDs, and on FIOS mostly sports, movies, and musical performances (all in HD only).

Since this will be my only system for playing music (and I only have the one television), I'd like to get something that sounds really good. I also, however, want it to look good in the room, since it's the central living area. For me, that means something that's unobtrusive and doesn't dominate the space, but whatever is there looks nice.

I'd love some suggestions for which Salk speakers to consider, speaker placement, and whether to go with L/R only, LRC (and sub if needed), or full 5.1 setup. Here are some pictures, some notes on measurements, and my current thoughts.













The L/R speakers will be fairly close to the front wall, and in front of windows - not ideal for sound or looks, but I don't really want to rearrange the room. The distance from the front wall baseboard to the edge of the rug (underneath the front legs of the TV stand) is 20" on the right and 18" on the left of the stand. From the glass in the front windows to the front of the stand is about 29". The blinds are down with the slats open during the day.

The TV stand is 66" W x 24" H. It is 62" from the left wall. If I get a center channel, I was thinking I'd remove the top drawer of the TV stand if Jim can build one that will fit in that spot. The drawer front is 18 1/8 W x 7 3/8 H. The depth to the back wall of the cabinet is 17 1/8", so I don't know if a rear-ported design would work for a center speaker in that spot. In a 5.1 setup, I don't know where I would put the surround speakers, as there is not a lot of room on either side of the sofa. On the wall could work if they were small, but I'm not committed to 5.1 (L/R only might be the best setup for my room, and I'm certainly open to that).

Given the limitations of my room, I'm thinking something in the Song series might work best. I think the SongTowers would be too tall visually in that space. The SongBirds could work. I also saw a picture of the SSII-RT's in a forum thread (by Darwin) that looked really nice (I keep wondering about the ribbon tweeter, but haven't listened to enough speakers to know if it would make a big difference for me). I tend to sit in the dining room or at the desk as much as the sofa, so I'd like the sound to be good from multiple locations.

Eventually, there will be more furniture, things on the walls, a dining room rug, etc. No WAF at the moment (hopefully some day). I have a 12-year old daughter who is very into style, so she will have some say in this also, but I know she wants me to get what I really want (in this case!).

I don't have a set budget (it keeps creeping up), but I don't think more expensive is necessarily better. It's more about finding the right speakers for my particular room, given that I'm not wanting to rearrange the room for the sake of the speakers, but still want the best sound possible for the space I have. Any suggestions are welcome. I realize I will need to buy electronics after choosing the speakers, so I'm open to thoughts there as well.

Thank you!

David

[Tone Depth]

Your best first step would be to call and talk to Jim Salk.  He knows a thing or two about his speakers.  Maybe more than anyone else might know.

[Art_Chicago]

not sure about your budget, but HT1-TL seems to be not too tall, yet excellent speakers!

[Nuance]

What are the actual room dimensions, specifically the distance from the windows to the wall behind the couch?

HT1's or Songbirds would work very nicely.  I highly recommend the ribbon tweeters, but since you sit in various locations around the house the dome may be a better fit due to it being more adept with dispersion.  I'd say if you're more critical of cymbals and timbre, go ribbon.  If not, go dome.  Definitely call Jim, though.  He's one of the nicest guys I've met and won't try to strong-arm you into something simply because its more expensive. 

Whatever you chose I hope it pleases you and your daughter very much. 

Nice house, by the way.

[DBC1]

Hi Tone Depth: I should have mentioned that I called Jim a few weeks ago and had a good conversation. I didn't have pictures or too many measurements at the time, but based on what I told him, he seemed to think the SongBirds or either of the Song Surrounds might be a good choice. Now that I have pictures and more information, I thought I'd post that, as it's easier to see a picture of a space than for me to describe it. Hopefully that will help make things clearer.

Art_Chicago: I would consider the HT1-TL. It's bigger than I would ideally want (mainly because both speakers will likely be right in front of windows), but it's a possibility. One thing I'm not sure about is how much distance I need behind each speaker to have it sound good and justify its relative cost. I realize this is dependent on the speaker's design (ported or not, etc), but don't know enough to know what would be right for my application. I don't want to spend more on a speaker but offset its benefits because it's depth or design requires more space behind it than I can give it in my room.

[DBC1]

Nuance - Thanks for the kind reply. From the front windows to the wall behind the couch is about 13 feet. The length of the room is about 24 ft. Ceilings are 8 ft. The opening into the dining room is 5 ft wide, plus the two cutouts in that wall.

Not sure about cymbals and timbre. I haven't had a stereo system in about twenty years, and haven't listened to much music in that time. Maybe I can listen to some other speakers that have dome/ribbon tweeters, if that would help me know what I like. Any suggestions are welcome.

I agree about Jim, even though we only spoke that one time. He was gracious, and I could tell he was most interested in helping me get what is right for me, instead of having his own agenda. I really appreciate that. I will definitely call him back (I thought I'd try to get some more clarity first about what I want).

Thanks for the comment about the house. The best part of it is the great light during the day, which you can't see because I took the pictures at night. With all of the windows, and the way the house is oriented, the light is fantastic. It will be nice to get some more things that make it feel like home - pictures, plants, tables, lamps, etc - though I'm grateful for what I have.

[ctouhey]

DBC1, the fact that you are even aware of Salk Signature Sound puts you several steps ahead of where I started.  I just received my HT3s and HTC last Friday.

This past year I undertook my every-ten-years-or-so upgrade, where I tossed everything and re-upped.  I had been reading about plasma panels on AVS forums for about 2 years and was familiar with Jeff Meier from his posts and website.  I contacted him and said I was interested in his consulting services.  He was the one who made me aware of Salk speakers as well as a myriad of other things.  He can pretty much recommend things for all budgets - from conservative to unlimited.  And, he doesn’t sell any equipment – just calibration services.

For me, I was looking for one person who could provide recommendations on a variety of equipment he was personally familiar with.  I had read enough of the "Help me pick my < blank > (speakers, AVP, amp, blu ray, etc.)” threads that for me, that route was going to be a waste of time.  I was looking for someone with whom I could have some degree of rapport and confidence, and Jeff proved to be that person for me.  You can check out his website and blog if interested.

Regards.
Chris

http://www.accucalhd.com/

http://homecinemaguru.com/

[Nuance]

ctouhey,

I hear Jeff is the best.   Had he been in the area when I needed an ISF calibration I would have gladly enlisted him.  He's a very smart man.

DBC1,

Some of the better ribbon tweeter implementations I've heard were on Dali speakers and the Monitor Audio Platinum series.  But Salks were the first I heard that came as close to "perfect" as possible (even though its unattainable).  Also, the new Beryllium dome tweeters on the Paradigm Signature v.2's and v.3's have a sonic signature that many times resembles the "ribbon sound." 

In my opinion your room is plenty big enough for a SongSeries speaker or the HT1's.  If possible, give the speakers some room to breath (regarding the back wall), and space them apart so they are the same distance wide as they are from your listening area - an equilateral triangle.  Eventually you may want to invest in some room treatments to place behind your listening position, which will help tame frequency ringing. 

I hope that helps.  All in all, you've got the makings of a great room for audio.  Enjoy making it feel more homely. 

P.S.  I love your equipment rack.  Standout Designs?

[floresjc]

Well, as others stated, talk to Jim. My first thought upon  seeing the room visually was SongTowers, the dimensions and layout is pretty similar to my old townhouse. But I saw you might not want a tower speaker for the height. I guess I'm a little confused about that. Speakers are a certain height so they are roughly ear level when you sit down, "in the plane" so to speak. Bookshelf speakers are shorter, but you will in all likelihood buy a stand that makes them nearly as tall as the SongTowers to begin with. So to me, the issue is whether you visually want to have stands in the picture vs one solid speaker. You can get as finnicky as you like with the placement relative to the wall, but I've found the SongTowers to be extremely flexible in this regard. Mine are only about 10" out (from wall to back of speaker, not plinth), and they sound fine.

HT1's sound marvelous and going 5.1 with them would be great. I have SongTowers for my tv room/theater setup, and I love them. For an all around value performer they are pretty awesome, and while I love the HT1, my wife and I personally don't like stands. You could always get the HT1-TL though (not available when I purchased), but you still have to figure out if a tower is going to work for you.

From an upgrade standpoint, it might be easiest to get the front L/R first and then build from there as you need. Stereo tv will sound a ton better, and you will have a nice 2-channel setup for whatever source you get. You can branch out from there, center, sub, rears, if you really want to. I know a number of people who don't have rears and all, and they don't miss it much because they are getting 97% of the soundtrack out of the L/R/C and sub. Or if you have a pot of gold, buy everything at once! 

Edit: For comparison my room is slightly bigger than yours with SongTowers in it. About 16' by 32' (think you stated 13' x 24'). And they don't get washed out at all and this room opens into another similarly sized space.

[MaxCast]

David,
Have you thought about turning your room and putting the tv on the 13' wall??  You would get better speaker placement and get one or two people in the sweet spot easier.

What kind of chair is the tan one?  With a smaller head rest that would be awesome.

Good choice with Salk Sound, btw.   

[clipped]

Welcome to the world of Salk speakers, whatever you choose I think you will be very happy.
Some thoughts, send your pics to Jim with close ups of furniture and wall color this will help with veneer colors and finishes. Jim can make any color you like and match very closely the furniture you have.
Maybe in-wall speakers, not obtrusive but also not the very best sounding and probably not Salk's.
Perhaps wall mounted, Jim has done this with many customers, search his website for photos. Four or five wall mounted speakers with a sub to match your furniture would be real fine sounding and looking.
I own his Songtowers that he matched very closely to a built in wall unit and I am very happy additionally I have a pair of HT3's in walnut that Jim dyed a bit darker to compliment my den furniture. The bottom line is probably going to be $$$, start with that and go from there, any other way will probably just cause frustration.
Hope this helps, good luck!

[markie]

Nice place there David!

If it were my place I would build (or have someone build) a simple and clean but classy looking wooden frame around the TV and stand. That would serve two purposes for me:
1)Asthetics - it would serve to soften the contrast between the harsh TV outlines and the softer looking surroundings. You could place plants or such on the frame as well.
2)Centre speaker placement - you could use the upper cross beam of the frame to attach the centre speaker, above and a little in front of the TV.

Again if it were my place I might move that rug back from the TV end to the couch end, perhaps six inches. The TV stand would not be on it, and it would give more room for the speakers to be moved ahead so they are a good foot or so ahead of the plane of the TV screen and further from the windows.

Oops - I see that the rug might be lined up with the line of your flooring panels, so moving the rug might be a no go.

What speakers to get? Here are approximate prices (basic veneer) and dimensions from the Salk website, not including plinths or spikes:

HT1 TL       42" H x 9" W x 11" D in 1" MDF            $3000 basic
HT2 TL        44 1/2" H x 9" W x 17" D in 1" MDF           $4000 basic
SongTower    44.5" H x 8" W x 12" D            $1800 basic
SongBird       38" H x 8" W x 7.5" D            $1300 basic

The  striking thing here is how shallow the SongBird is. Only 7.5 inches deep! And notice too that the HT1 TL, while one inch wider than the SongTowers is 2.5 inches shorter and 1 inch shallower. If I had the money the HT1 is the one I would get.

Yes living vicariously through the possibilities of another's living room is fun. 
 
(Practice for when I'll be setting up for our place, which is definitely a smaller space.)

Mark

[jtwrace]

I'd say no matter which speaker you choose, you should plan on some GIK acoustic treatments for that room. 

This will ensure that you get the most out of them and your listening experience.   

[DBC1]

Hi All,

Thanks for the helpful replies. Sorry I am so late in responding. It's hard to do any personal stuff at work, and I'm in the Eastern Time Zone (outside of Boston), so some of your messages came in after I went to sleep last night.

I'm not sure if it's good forum etiquette to answer several posts in one long post. If not, please let me know.

Chris - I'm glad to know about Salk speakers, and grateful to all of the people who've posted along the way that led me here. Congratulations on the HT3s/HTC.

I had a somewhat similar path reading (too much) AVS forums before buying my plasma panel. It seems that Jeff is well regarded, and I will keep him in mind. I've been trying to get in touch with D-Nice to calibrate my panel, as he is supposed to be the Pioneer guru (that's what I bought). I will check out the links you provided. Thanks.

Nuance - Thanks for the speaker suggestions. It would be nice to have an idea of how dome/ribbon tweeters sound to me before I make a choice, though I realize the specific model and implementation probably matter more than the category. Ideally, I would be able to hear a Salk dome and Salk ribbon, but that may not be possible.

The TV stand is made by Cherry Pond Designs, a small company in New Hampshire:

http://www.cherryponddesigns.com/

floresjc - The concern I have about height is aesthetic. It just seems that the SongTowers will look big in the room. Also, they will be directly in front of windows which look out on the front yard. I'd rather not block too much of that view if possible. It's tricky, because I haven't had speakers in a long time, and the room is not yet fully furnished, so I have to imagine what speakers of a certain size will look like. I do want them to sound good, but I don't want them to be a focal point in the room, though I'm sure they will be beautiful based on the pictures I've seen of Jim's work.

Thanks for the confirmation that SongTowers work well close to the wall. That's one of the things that had me think the Song Series might be a good choice in my space.

Thanks also for the feedback about the HT1 and stands. I'm not sure about the look of stands either, though I've only seen them in a store, not a home.

I'm not too concerned about not having rear speakers, at least to start. The main question I have (regarding number of speakers) is whether to go with L/R, or L/R/C and sub. It seems that the importance of a center channel (and sub) for watching TV is a topic that really polarizes people. I haven’t lived with either, so I’m not sure.

MaxCast - I've thought often about the arrangement of the room (and tried a few different configurations). One 13' wall is mostly windows. As you can probably tell, I really like light and seeing the outdoors, so I don't want to block those. The opposite 13' wall would be perfect but it is very far from the sitting area (would need a huge screen), and the room is bisected by the path between the front door and dining room, so I couldn't move the sitting area much closer to that wall.

The tan chair is from Ekornes (Stressless). They make many models and sizes of chairs and sofas. Very comfortable and well made.

clipped - Thanks for the suggestions about finishes. In-wall speakers are intriguing, but I have so little wall space (so many windows) that I don't know if that would be possible. Wall mounted would be interesting if that could work. I will search for photos, as it's hard to imagine how that would look. You are lucky to have HT3's and SongTowers!

Mark - That's a creative idea about the wooden frame. Another possibility to think about! Yes, the rug seems like it is balanced on the floor as is, so I would probably not move it, but I get your idea about allowing more room for the speakers to be further out. I'm wondering if it's OK for the speakers (spikes/plinth) to be half on the rug, half on the floor.

Thanks for the table comparing dimensions and prices - very helpful. The question I am left with is whether the difference in sound (in my room) between the HT1-TL and SongBird is worth the difference in price.

Yes, living vicariously and imagining possibilities is definitely fun, though not as much I hope as actually having and experiencing the real thing!

jtwrace - I don't know anything about room treatments. Where would they typically go? The wall behind the speakers is mostly windows, at least at the height of the drivers. I recall that Nuance mentioned the wall behind the listening area. That could work for the sofa seating. I will do some research on these at some point soon. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Nuance]

Yes, room treatments should definitely go behind your listening position, mainly because its so close to the back wall.  Placing 4" thick panels there will help reduce the bass boom by reducing ringing at those frequencies.  If your room setup stays the way it is in the pictures, the left speaker will have windows next to it (can't treat those), and the right wall is probably not close enough to worry about extreme early first reflections. 

If one day you do get serious about room treatments, in your room I'd add nothing more than two or three on the back wall (behind the listening position) and one or two panels on the ceiling.  Many reflections are good and add to the music in a positive manner, but generally only if the loudspeakers have good off-axis dispersion/frequency response/power response.  The Salk's perform well is those categories, so the minimal treatment approach should work well for you. 

Sorry for the rant.    Hopefully one day it will assist you. 

[DBC1]

Thanks Nuance. That was a helpful explanation, and definitely not a rant! Anything that adds to my knowledge is good, so I appreciate when other people share theirs freely with me. Have a great weekend.

[adydula]

Hi,

I think a pair of SongTowers would look great beside the TV, very similar to my setup.

The rear speakers could be on stands on either side on the couch.

Your receiver with Audessy will help calibrate the 5.1 setup for HT.

HT-1's wouldbe fine as well..

Talk to Jim!
He's the best!

All the best
Alex!
 

[clipped]

Hi DBC1,
Jim has made on-wall HT1 with a 45 degree angle for best sound, perfect for rear channel. Contact him directly, best advice is to do this project once the right way.
By the way, having the Towers and the HT3's isn't luck at all it is a debilitating, worsening, crippling, bankrupting disease!!
Good luck and happy listening.

[DBC1]

Alex - Thanks for your suggestions. Your speakers look good in your room (I saw your gallery pictures).

clipped - I agree about doing this once the right way. That's the hard part! Regarding your "disease" - at least you get to listen to great music as you are going downhill!

[cdorval1]

Hi David,

Very interesting thread.  Great idea to get some varied input before you decide--especially from Jim.  He's very good at assessing situations and desires.  You're getting lots of constructive suggestions here.

If you want something that's not visually intrusive that can be placed close to your back wall, the Songbirds would be a great choice.  For more range you can move up from there--the Songtowers are 6 inches taller but also can be placed near the back wall. 

And know you won't go wrong with any of the options mentioned in this thread.  I have Songtowers in a stereo setup in our small TV room, and we use HT3s in a stereo music system in our living room.  They are both awesome.  I never find myself wishing we had different speakers!

You have a great house--hope you and your daughter have fun putting your system together!

Craig