Looking for a high end successor to my Koetsu Rosewood Signature

Gopher · « **on:** 17 Mar 2010, 02:57 am »

Hello all,

I have a Koetsu Rosewood Signature cartridge mounted on a Well Tempered Reference turntable which I am seriously thinking of letting go and moving away from. I currently have an Eastern Electric Minimax Phonostage and a Ray Sammuels Nighthawk at my disposal (I'll probably keep one of the two) and am trying to decide on a move.

In the past I have enjoyed lower end dynavector cartridges as raw and exciting (20xl in particular) and musical. The Koetsu is refined yet colored--very pretty at times and synergy is far better with Nighthawk I have on loan then my own Minimax. But still I feel it influences the music I grab for too much and isn't particularly versatile.

My thoughts on where to go with a cartridge have been all over the place.

I'm chewing on a Dynavector XX2, XV-1s or Soundsmith The Voice, higher end Van Den Huls (though naked body scares me), and as of tonight I'm curious about Zyxs (Airy3 / Uni). The Shilabe is also very intriguing.

I'm toying with expensive cartridges, but I'm not made of money and any purchase I'd make would need to be under $2000 new or used. The Koetsu will fund its replacement (supplemented slightly with real world dollars if necessary).

My system is pretty resolving so as to hear subtle changes and the of my components are:

Cain & Cain Abbys (terry built)
First Watt F1
Eastern Electric Minimax Preamp (upgraded PSU)
Well Tempered Reference

My listening is a mixed bag. I've got Miles Davis, Eryka Badu, Johnny Cash and Cat Power sitting on my coffee table in front of me now if that tells anything.

While I like the Koetsu's midrange presentation, I think I prefer a sound that is faster and more dynamic, a little bit more resolved and a bit more neutral (not sterile!)--in that I don't want the cartridge to decide what music I should listen to.

The decision is consuming me and I need to poop or get off the pot.

Any directions/suggestion is welcome.

I should also note, I was recently using an Audio Technica 440mla temporarily on my arm and while it is by NO MEANS in the same league as the Koetsu, it made me realize I think I want a better tracker.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #1 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 04:09 am »

Based on everything you've said so far, I think the Soundsmith Voice will be a perfect fit for you.

I don't own a RSP, but a good friend who has a very similar system to mine has one and I've listened extensively. All the qualities you mention are fantastic, but it is slightly on the warm side.

The DV XV-1s is a great choice too, but even used they are still around 3k.

I use an XV-1s, Lyra Skala and the Voice, all excellent carts. I think for the money, the Voice can't be beat if you want tonal neutrality and awesome tracking abilities. The Skala would be my next choice, but it's double the price.

shaizada · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 04:26 am »

Jeff,

What do you feel is your reference cart as you've posted about 2 out of your 3 carts that I have a very high level of interest in. Have these carts been reviewed in your magazine by any chance?

Thanks!

Edit: Found the XV-1S review

Mr Content · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 05:25 am »

Hi Gopher, I had the Koetsu Gold for several years, I let it go about 5 yrs ago, and have regretted it ever since. I hope you dont end up like me in that way. Good luck on your journey

Mr C

TONEPUB · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 06:03 am »

Quote from: shaizada on 17 Mar 2010, 04:26 am

Jeff,

What do you feel is your reference cart as you've posted about 2 out of your 3 carts that I have a very high level of interest in. Have these carts been reviewed in your magazine by any chance?

Thanks!

Edit: Found the XV-1S review

Actually, I use them all. I have a TW Acustic raven with an SME iV.Vi arm that I have the ZYX Omega X mounted. This cartridge is somewhat on the warm, lush romantic side and reminds me a lot of the Lyra Olympos that I reviewed last year. The other arm on the Raven is the current TriPlanar, which has the Skala mounted. This combination is fairly neutral, but resolving. The ZYX cart is fed into one input of the Boulder 1008 phono preamp and the Skala is fed into one input of my Nagra VPS/VFS phono preamp.(with red wine audio Black Lightening power supply)

The XV-1s is on another iV.Vi arm, mounted on the Acoustic Signature Analog One and fed into the other input of the Boulder, while the Soundsmith is on my Technics SL-1200 with SME 309 arm and Sound HiFi mods, fed into the other Nagra input.

I know this is pretty crazy, but I review this stuff, and it really helps having a few good known references. Also, because each one of these setups goes from somewhat lush, to slightly more neutral and extended, just about any record I play will sound great on at least one combination!

We've reviewed all of these except for the ZYX, which will be in this issue...

Gopher · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 02:25 pm »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 17 Mar 2010, 04:09 am

Based on everything you've said so far, I think the Soundsmith Voice will be a perfect fit for you.

I don't own a RSP, but a good friend who has a very similar system to mine has one and I've listened extensively. All the qualities you mention are fantastic, but it is slightly on the warm side.

The DV XV-1s is a great choice too, but even used they are still around 3k.

I use an XV-1s, Lyra Skala and the Voice, all excellent carts. I think for the money, the Voice can't be beat if you want tonal neutrality and awesome tracking abilities. The Skala would be my next choice, but it's double the price.

I am very curious about The Voice and have had other recommendations for it. Do you think it would be suitable for my Well Tempered Reference tonearm? I have a lot of flexibility with that arm as its highly adjustable with the paddle dampening/effective mass system, but I'm hoping for something that is pretty 'right' to begin with.

FWIW, I do not have an RSP, my cartridge is a Rosewood Signature, which I suspect may be a bit more euphonic over accurate than the RSP (more than 'slightly warm imo). I imagine your recommendations are just as relevant with the RS as it's bigger brother the RSP though.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd love to hear any thoughts you could share as between the XV-1s and Voice. I realize they often go higher than my budget, but even now I'm eyeballing on for $2000.

Do you think any of the Zyx cartridges would be a good consideration for me?

ricmon · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 04:43 pm »

Say Gopher if you are curious about The Voice maybe you should check out the Grado Reference or Statement line. They like the Sound Smith are moving iron but have a much better reputation (not to not Peter's work).

Ric

Gopher · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 04:53 pm »

I am somewhat interested in the higher end grados, but understand them to be poor trackers.

There really doesn't seem to be much info out on The Voice... even less on the smmc1.

Gopher · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 01:52 am »

Does anyone have any experience with the Van Den Hul Condor XGM carts? This too has piqued my interest after reading some favorable comparisons against the XV-1s.

This is sooo subjective and there is no consistency/standards--so hard to derive useful feedback for ones own personal situation. Thank God for audiogon where you can buy used and re-sell if it doesn't do it for you.

blakep · « **Reply #9 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 03:26 am »

What I will suggest is a bit of work, but will represent a huge saving for you vs. spending $2000 and give you a truly outstanding cartridge which by all accounts is almost exactly what you describe you are looking for.

Buy a Denon 103R. Supposedly Comet Supply has them for $200; many E-bay sellers have them around $300 or so. Then buy an ebony wood body from Uwe in Belgium for $150. Insert the Denon into the wood body and send it to Peter Lederman at Soundsmith and have him do a $250 Line Contact retip and "pot" the cartridge into the wood body using epoxy. Total outlay: $775

You will have a cartridge that is outrageously dynamic (both micro and macro), detailed without being analytical, musical in the true sense of the word without being "euphonic" or "romantic" like the Koetsu. I have used stock stylus 103R's in wood bodies for the past few years with great results but was recently shocked at just how much of an improvement the Soundsmith retip and potting made to an ebony 103R (one user of a stock stylus ebony 103R compared it very favorably to an Ortofon Jubilee, for example-with the Soundsmith retip and potting this cartridge is really elevated in terms of performance!).

The Soundsmith wood body Denon has replaced cartridges like the Benz Ebony L and Koetsu Rosewood in a number of systems and is a legitimate way to achieve very high end sound at a relatively budget price. In an aluminum body with a line contact retip preferred to an Allaerts for example as well. Competitive with cartridges well beyond (and I mean well beyond) the $2000 mark. If you want a "one stop solution", I believe that Jonathan Weiss at Oswalds Mill Audio is on record as stating that Peter Lederman's own reworking of the 103R is competitive into the $5K range (sells for around $1895 I believe).

Your Well Tempered arm has the flexibility to accomodate the cartridge as a result of its flexible fluid damping capability and I would suggest that the Nighthawk is the better of your two phono stages in terms of matching up to the Frankendenon in terms of both gain and loading.

Something to consider.

Gopher · « **Reply #10 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 05:11 pm »

Thats honestly not a bad idea at all. Do you definitely recommend the 103R over 103? Zu's didn't seem to prefer one over the other for their metal bodies and said it would be system dependent.

Perhaps my best course of action would be snapping up the next heavily used or re-tip needed 103R available and giving it to soundsmith...

I'll definitely consider this route.

blakep · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 06:16 pm »

To be very honest, I have no experience with the standard 103. I went with the 103R initially because it is reportedly a bit cleaner and extended in the high frequencies so rather than purchase a new 103, I have worked with what I have. As Zu (and you) mention, all of this stuff is system dependent. The aluminum body may well have slightly harder tonal balance that works better with the stock 103 which some say is a bit rolled off compared to the 103R.

If I was going to do a stock 103 I would probably do an aluminum body (a la Zu), something like the Isokinetic body which can be had for around $125, for this reason. I've used two of Uwe's wood bodies (ebony and clavellin) with the 103R and much prefer the tonal balance of the Ebony (which I also feel is a great matchup with the extra detail you'll get with the Soundsmith retip) as opposed to the clavellin which is a little less full bodied and more "detail" oriented with the stock Denon stylus.

Ultimately your choice of wood vs. aluminum for example, combined with the retip is going to be about the synergy that's achieved with the combination. I do know that Uwe's personal choice/cartridge (and he has had the opportunity to experiment with all the different woods) is ebony with the top of the line "optimized" LC retip from Soundsmith which is their most exotic/extreme stylus profile. I went with the standard Line contact retip as the reading I'd done suggested that some felt the $350 retip to be much more difficult to properly dial in and setup and that it was a bit more hi-fi-ish. My vinyl is in very good condition but there were also suggestions from those with experience that the more exotic LC is less forgiving of vinyl that might not be in pristine condition.

Lots of things to consider as there are many combinations, but I can tell you that I am extremely happy with the ebony/$250 retip/potted combo. It strikes an almost perfect balance of musicality/detail without being overly analytical to my ear.

The only thing to watch out for is your ability to balance out a fairly heavy cartridge. In the ebony body, with the epoxy potting done, I'd think that the cartridge weighs out at close to 15 grams. If you went aluminum body, you may well be into 16-18 grams depending on which body you start with.

BobM · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 06:19 pm »

Don't forget Transfigurations and some Benz Micro's. They tend to have a warmer sound while still bringing that detail and musicality to the table.

Gopher · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 08:31 pm »

I just went a little crazy and purchased two cartridges and more or less committed myself to a third. I just purchased a Nagoaka MP-50 with a brand new stylus and an Acrylic Soundsmith 'The Voice".

If my Koetsu sells, I'll probably pick up a Condor from a nice gentleman on audiogon as well and try and spend some time with the three to decide which best suits me long term.

In the mean time I'm keeping my eyes open for a cheap 103R in need of a re-tip to try a wood body.

I think its time to stop buying gear and get some more music.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 09:02 pm »

I think the toughest thing to purchase is a cartridge, because they've become so expensive and it's the one component that dealers won't let you take home and test drive.

Back when cartridges were a couple hundred bucks, it wasn't the end of the world if you made the wrong move, but now it's a multi thousand dollar mistake if you choose wrong.

Gopher · « **Reply #15 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 12:48 am »

Definitely. Trying to decide on a course of action has been flat out stressful. I also had a scary realization during my obsessive research. I did more reading and deliberating over what cartridge to purchase then what college/law school to attend!

There is something weird about The Voice... it seems to be loved by the publications that review it, but despite a fair asking price (and being easily under a grand lightly used) there seems to be virtually no forum buzz over it.

I think I did well enough price wise not to take a loss if it doesn't work for me. I went with an acrylic body one. Ebony was attractive, but price was too good to resist.

marknoir · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 04:31 am »

Quote from: Gopher on 17 Mar 2010, 04:53 pm

I am somewhat interested in the higher end grados, but understand them to be poor trackers.

There really doesn't seem to be much info out on The Voice... even less on the smmc1.

IMHO, to go from a Koetsu Rosewood Signature to Grado or Denon 103 - no... Different class. If you like the basic virtues of Koetsu, but want something faster with more extension on both ends - Shelter 901 or 9000 or 90. I've used it ever since my Koetsu Onyx has departed. You can pick a 901 for about $750 used. Another interesting choice would be Miyajima Shilabe, which got a lot of buzz (about $1800 used). It is supposed to be warm as well but fast and extended. Please don't kid yourself - after Rosewood Signature you are spoiled

VdH has a much "colder" presentation, period. Grados are just as warm as Rosewood but are bad trackers and are not in the same league. Denons are more neutral but are in the lower class as well (yes, I know, they have a cult following).

However, your arm here may be a limitation. All Koetsus work best in heavy arms. Shelter and Shilabe probably do as well. The Voice would probably work better, but all Soundsmiths I have heard are very neutral and open, on the opposite side of spectrum of Rosewood.

blakep · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 09:58 am »

Quote from: marknoir on 19 Mar 2010, 04:31 am

IMHO, to go from a Koetsu Rosewood Signature to Grado or Denon 103 - no... Different class. VdH has a much "colder" presentation, period. Grados are just as warm as Rosewood but are bad trackers and are not in the same league.

Denons are more neutral but are in the lower class as well (yes, I know, they have a cult following).

Stock Denons, yes. Modified I am not so sure.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=857038&highlight=denon+koetsu+rosewood+amandarae&r=

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=858582&highlight=

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=61.120

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=840313&highlight=soundsmith+denon

profkirby · « **Reply #18 on:** 21 Mar 2010, 08:36 am »

If you have a Koetsu, you of course already have a high end cartridge. Some have suggested Sound-Smiths. A good choice, but If you're able to pay Koetsu money you may wish to look at his Sussurro. It's still a moving iron but you'll need your step up unit as you do with the Koetsu.
Beyond this of course is the Strain Gauge System. I have never heard it but it has everything on paper to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I also agree about his reworked Denon's. For less money you could go back to The Voice in the wood body (there are of a higher spec) or the Aida. I'm working on saving up for the lowly(?) Boheme
Good luck with your choice i hope what ever you do it will be good.
Tim

Gopher · « **Reply #19 on:** 21 Mar 2010, 04:16 pm »

The Koetsu was somewhat of a windfall for me. Though I am lucky enough to be able to afford such luxuries, I'm also blessed with the sanity to keep my wants in check.

I honestly just try to buy mostly used gear at great prices and make a couple bucks here and there to incrementally upgrade. This is one of my 'larger' increments.

I actually already purchased The Voice in an Acrylic body. A Nagoaka MP-50 as well. I'm going to experiment with higher compliance carts on my Well Tempered Reference. There also may be a Condor in my cards, though I'm mentally getting stuck on the nude body.

Have you actually compared the Sussurro to the Voice? I'll be curious as to how it stacks up once I've spent some time getting used to the voice. Who knows what the future may bring. I think the Strain Gauge systems are definitely out of my justifiable range though.

Thanks for the input.