RAW-capable prosumer point n shoot camera suggestions?

dB Cooper · « **on:** 12 Mar 2010, 11:41 pm »

Hi folks. I am starting to look for a non-dslr viewfinder type camera. Gonzo megapixelage is not a high priority as much as noise free low light performance. Also ease of use for someone accustomed to 35mm film cameras. But I do want something that can shoot RAW. Good used deals on ebay etc would be fine. Been looking at the Canon G10/G11, leaning toward that type of camera. First non-toy digital cam.

Thanks for any advice!

JohnR · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 11:47 pm »

Someone accustomed to 35mm film cameras is likely to find anything but a DSLR frustrating in terms of shutter lag. Lens limitations come into play as well (both ends of the aperture scale). And there's the noise thing as well.. Some DSLRs are quite compact.

In compacts, I have a Panasonic LX2 that shoots RAW, and the newer LX3 seems to be well regarded, as long as you don't mind the fairly short focal length (24-60mm equiv). Don't know much about any others.

low.pfile · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 12:32 am »

dBC

The Canon G11 should fit your needs. I didn't go that route, but I am familiar with it. I went with the Canon S90.. While the S90 does NOT have a viewfinder it shares the same 1/1.7" sensor with the G11, which has surprisingly good low light capability. and the grain/noise is reasonable for a point and shoot sensor. I had a Panasonic LX3 before the S90 and the S90's noise and low light capability is better to me, especially the noise.

I think the controls on the G11 are more SLR like compared to the S90. Though the S90 has a cool control ring around the lens that can be used to change aperture--great interface! The G11's max aperture is a little slower than the S90(f/2.8 vs f/2) but is has more zoom range and an optical viewfinder.

They both shoot RAW.

@ John R.... the shutter lag is getting much better on small digicams. If there's enough light to focus the S90 is very quick, not DSLR quick, but quick.

I'll try to take some sample shots later.

cheers,
Ed

JohnR · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 12:54 am »

Quote from: low.pfile on 13 Mar 2010, 12:32 am

@ John R.... the shutter lag is getting much better on small digicams. If there's enough light to focus the S90 is very quick, not DSLR quick, but quick.

Ah, good to hear.

I missed the part about the (optical?) viewfinder - is that required (db Cooper)? That cuts it down a lot.

Nice autumn day here today - I think I'll dust off the LX2 and go shoot some JPEGs, photography has been getting a bit complicated lately

Edit: I just noticed that the G11 has less megapixels than the G10 - an interesting move.

WGH · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 01:10 am »

I got a G11 a few months ago and like it. The camera is a nice size and not too bulky with a big, clear flip screen (a necessity for me). The G11 still has plenty of pixels for everything I shoot and has excellent low light capability. I like being able to set ISO and exposure without going through a menu, plus the camera comes with a real printed manual which is good because I still don't know what all the buttons do. Remember to buy a SDHC card if you don't have one because the camera kit does not include any memory. A 8GB card will hold 540 RAW or 455 RAW + Large (3648 x 2736) jpeg or a 1hr. 4 min. movie.

Wayne

WGH · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 02:04 am »

I did some quick, hand held low light test photos just to see what the G11 can do at ISO 3200.

Resized with a little pixel sharpening using the KPT Equalizer plugin:

Full size, Cropped, no sharpening

jqp · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 04:04 am »

Just for grins here is a comparison between G11 and D40

http://www.camera-catalog.com/compares/popular/canon_powershot_g11_vs_nikon_d40

dB Cooper · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 04:47 am »

Quote from: JohnR on 13 Mar 2010, 12:54 am

Ah, good to hear.

I missed the part about the (optical?) viewfinder - is that required (db Cooper)? That cuts it down a lot.

Nice autumn day here today - I think I'll dust off the LX2 and go shoot some JPEGs, photography has been getting a bit complicated lately

Edit: I just noticed that the G11 has less megapixels than the G10 - an interesting move.

An optical finder would be helpful. From what I have been able to gather, the G11 traded some pixel count for better low light/high ISO performance relative to the G10. A good trade for my tastes.

low.pfile · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 05:07 am »

Then again, you can improve the image noise by going to a larger sensor, without going to a DSLR...micro four thirds.

micro43rds is still in its early stages but they have been popular. they will cost a bit more that the G11. eg Olympus EP1 w 28-84mm lens $650 (the optional optical viewfinder is via the hotshoe--extra cost $100?)

a good real world comparison of high iso noise Mfourthirds vs the G11
http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Canon_PowerShot_G11/high_ISO_noise.shtml

JohnR · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 08:13 am »

Quote from: low.pfile on 13 Mar 2010, 05:07 am

the optional optical viewfinder is via the hotshoe--extra cost $100?

You took me by surprise there... some searching indicates that it's for the 17mm lens only.

low.pfile · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 09:04 am »

Some snapshot photos (in camera JPG) I had from last month. Lighting was fairly dim in the dining room-no flash. All shots are handheld with a Canon S90 which has the same sensor as the G11.

Click the thumbnail for larger size image. On image page click the magnifying glass for 100% original, unedited image.

osso bucco start:
ISO 1000 f2.5, 1/40sec, ambient light

osso bucco end:
ISO 1600 f2.5, 1/60sec, macro mode, ambient light

glasses:
ISO 1600 f2.5, 1/60sec, macro mode, ambient light

I've been pretty impressed with the sensitivity of the S90.

cheers,
ed

low.pfile · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 09:54 am »

OK. The OP wanted low light....how about candle light? (plus the glow from a TV across the room)

S90 again (camera JPG, unedited) Sharpness, Saturation, Contrast:NORMAL

ISO 1600, f2.0, 1/13sec, hand held

ISO 3200, f2.0, 1/25sec, hand held

groovybassist · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Mar 2010, 06:02 am »

I'll second the S90. Wife and I recently ditched our DSLRs as we wanted to something small, but capable - we're very pleased with the S90.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Mar 2010, 07:20 am »

Quote from: dB Cooper on 13 Mar 2010, 04:47 am

An optical finder would be helpful. From what I have been able to gather, the G11 traded some pixel count for better low light/high ISO performance relative to the G10. A good trade for my tastes.

You are correct, but interestingly enough the G11 shoots far less noisy pics in jpeg than in RAW mode, which really surprised me.

low.pfile · « **Reply #14 on:** 14 Mar 2010, 03:41 pm »

^^^Good to know Jeff. Thanks.

SET Man · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Mar 2010, 05:21 pm »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 14 Mar 2010, 07:20 am

You are correct, but interestingly enough the G11 shoots far less noisy pics in jpeg than in RAW mode, which really surprised me.

Hey!

With JPEG camera automatically applied noise reduction. Too much noise reduction will overly smooth everything out and you loose detail. Too little or none you will left with detail and noise spots (like film grain back in the old day of film) With RAW you have to do the noise reduction yourself after in post processing. But some cam have noise reduction level that can be choose for JPEG I think.

As for P&S digi cam with RAW. I haven't thought much about it. But it would be nice to have one with RAW I guess.

Anyway, I'm still using my 5 years old slow and noisy P&S right now. Maybe I will get a new one someday.

Good luck and have fun.

Take care,
Buddy

low.pfile · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 Mar 2010, 06:01 pm »

Quote from: SET Man on 15 Mar 2010, 05:21 pm

[excerpt]
..... But some cam have noise reduction level that can be choose for JPEG I think.

Buddy,
You are right, some P&S cams have JPG Noise Reduction options (the LX 3 has 5 levels) but the Canon S90 and G11 do not have any options. (G11: based on reviewing the manual)

JohnR · « **Reply #17 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 11:37 am »

So... what did the OP end up buying? We do need to know, ya know

Grumpy_Git · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 01:04 pm »

Sigma DP2!

Nick.

Hyfi · « **Reply #19 on:** 2 Apr 2010, 03:31 pm »

I have not ventured into RAW yet but I did recently buy the G11 and it is a truly awesome camera.

For those like myself who never used a DSLR or remember all the capabilities of a manual 35mm, do yourself a favor and get a copy of the Green Lantern G11 book witch walks you through every feature and function and why you would use it.

Canon's User Manual just plain sucks and only points out the features but no really how to use them.