[ctviggen]

I purchased a Denon receiver that I was originally going to use for my family room (once it finally gets completed).  I am now going to use this for my living room.  That means I have no receiver/processor to use for the family room.

The family room is a combination HT/stereo room.  I have a two channel amp to run the front R/L speakers and a tube amp to run the center channel.  I also have a 5 channel Lexicon/Bryston amp to run the other 4 channels.  This will be a 7.1 (actually, 7.2 then 7.3 and maybe 7.4) system. 

Can anyone recommend a processor (no amps, preferably) that can handle the current HD audio formats (must have 7.1), supports HDMI, and (preferably) supports scaling of video to 720p (or 1080p).  I need only a single HDMI output, but multiple HDMI inputs.

Price range is preferably as close to 1,000 as possible. 

My list is Outlaw audio (new), Emotive (new), or Integra DHC-9.9 (used).  Are there any others to consider?

[Tyson]

If you can find it street price at that level, the new Panasonic AE4000 is the current class leader, and not by a little.

[hometheaterdoc]

Tyson,

ummm.... am I reading correctly?  Did you recommend a video projector to someone asking for recommendations for an audio surround sound processor?

The Onkyo pre-pro is decent.  I think you can still find the older model in your price range.  The newest one might be slightly higher depending on where you get it.

[srb]

ummm.... am I reading correctly?  Did you recommend a video projector to someone asking for recommendations for an audio surround sound processor?

You are.  He did.  But to be fair, he is on a "Single Malt Scotch Journey"!   
 
Steve

[Tyson]

Haha, I read "Projector" where it said processor   I wasn't drinking then, but I am now!  Hello Craggenmore Distillery Edition Port Wood!!

[ctviggen]

Tyson,

I'm a lover of scotch, too.  I find the DEs a bit confusing though.  Some of them are fairly good (Laga DE comes to mind), but for most I find the original bottling better.  By the way, if you find a G&M Ardbeg 9 yo, buy it.  It's fantastic and way better than any current Ardbeg (in my opinion, but I no longer drink Ardbeg because it tastes too much like peat; the G&M has peat but tons of other flavors).  I've gone through a ton of bottles in the past year, some not available in the U.S., but I haven't posted on the scotch posting.  It also helps to have someone to split bottles with, else it gets too expensive.  Most overpriced and not that good:  Dewar's Signature.  Not worth anywhere near the $200/bottle going price.  Best:  G&M Ardbeg 9yo; Sazarac 18 yo rye; Thomas Handy rye; several others.  Too much peat and not enough flavor:  Ardbeg  Uigeadail  and Corryvreckan (though the Corry is better). 

Hmmm... Onkyo pre-pro?  I'll have to look into that.  I find it strange that I can buy any number of receivers, with 5-7 channels of amplification, for under 1k, but when you speak of "processors", the cost skyrockets.  Why?  The receivers have processors in them, too. 

I'd buy a receiver, but the 5-7 channels of amplification would do nothing, as I have all the amplifier power I need. 

[ted_b]

A few of us (me included) had the Integra 9.8 (or Onkyo Pro 885 identical twin) and moved on to the Denon 3808 (yes it's an AVR) and found better sonics.  The 3808 can be used as a pre/pro by using it's pre outs and eschewing it's internal amps (or use the amps for non-critical stuff like zone 2, etc.).

[ctviggen]

A few of us (me included) had the Integra 9.8 (or Onkyo Pro 885 identical twin) and moved on to the Denon 3808 (yes it's an AVR) and found better sonics.  The 3808 can be used as a pre/pro by using it's pre outs and eschewing it's internal amps (or use the amps for non-critical stuff like zone 2, etc.).

Interesting.  I believe I purchased the predecessor to this Denon, which is the receiver I'll be using in my living room.  I've never turned it on, though, because all this time my family room has been construction and I've not had reason to turn it on.  I'll look into the Denon.  Thanks for the help.

[Mr Peabody]

It would be difficult to meet your budget here but check on used Marantz AV8003, loaded with features.  Good performance for it's price.  The Rotel rsp-1570 had slightly lower MSRP and may be another bet used.  I'd love to see how the Emotiva performs.  Outlaw was selling Onkyo because their processor wasn't done yet, do they now have one?  A friend of mine had one of their older models and it didn't hold up well.  He said Outlaw has great customer service but not much concellation if the unit isn't doing it's job.

Processors are generally more expensive because of better parts and quality which should yield better sonic performance.

Just another .02, I moved from solid state to tubes in a mixed HT/stereo system using tubes for the front L/R.  The tubes and solid state did not mix well.  To the point I couldn't tolerate it.  I immediately devised a way to have a separate two channel system and went with a 5 channel amp for HT.  I sold the 3-channel solid state and ended up with a Class V 5-channel.  It would be interesting to hear one of the Butler 5-channel tube amps but that seems like a expensive tube change when the time comes.

[Tyson]

Tyson,

I'm a lover of scotch, too.  I find the DEs a bit confusing though.  Some of them are fairly good (Laga DE comes to mind), but for most I find the original bottling better.  By the way, if you find a G&M Ardbeg 9 yo, buy it.  It's fantastic and way better than any current Ardbeg (in my opinion, but I no longer drink Ardbeg because it tastes too much like peat; the G&M has peat but tons of other flavors).  I've gone through a ton of bottles in the past year, some not available in the U.S., but I haven't posted on the scotch posting.  It also helps to have someone to split bottles with, else it gets too expensive.  Most overpriced and not that good:  Dewar's Signature.  Not worth anywhere near the $200/bottle going price.  Best:  G&M Ardbeg 9yo; Sazarac 18 yo rye; Thomas Handy rye; several others.  Too much peat and not enough flavor:  Ardbeg  Uigeadail  and Corryvreckan (though the Corry is better). 

Hmmm... Onkyo pre-pro?  I'll have to look into that.  I find it strange that I can buy any number of receivers, with 5-7 channels of amplification, for under 1k, but when you speak of "processors", the cost skyrockets.  Why?  The receivers have processors in them, too. 

I'd buy a receiver, but the 5-7 channels of amplification would do nothing, as I have all the amplifier power I need. 

Most of the DE's are not very good, and the Craggenmore I am drinking now is included in that category!

[ctviggen]

It would be difficult to meet your budget here but check on used Marantz AV8003, loaded with features.  Good performance for it's price.  The Rotel rsp-1570 had slightly lower MSRP and may be another bet used.  I'd love to see how the Emotiva performs.  Outlaw was selling Onkyo because their processor wasn't done yet, do they now have one?  A friend of mine had one of their older models and it didn't hold up well.  He said Outlaw has great customer service but not much concellation if the unit isn't doing it's job.

Processors are generally more expensive because of better parts and quality which should yield better sonic performance.

Just another .02, I moved from solid state to tubes in a mixed HT/stereo system using tubes for the front L/R.  The tubes and solid state did not mix well.  To the point I couldn't tolerate it.  I immediately devised a way to have a separate two channel system and went with a 5 channel amp for HT.  I sold the 3-channel solid state and ended up with a Class V 5-channel.  It would be interesting to hear one of the Butler 5-channel tube amps but that seems like a expensive tube change when the time comes.

I used the tube amp for my center channel previously with no problems.  I now have a battery powered tube preamp I'll use for 2 channel.  I still have solid state for the front two speakers; I'll see what happens if I transition to tubes for the front two channels.

[hometheaterdoc]

It would be difficult to meet your budget here but check on used Marantz AV8003, loaded with features.  Good performance for it's price.  The Rotel rsp-1570 had slightly lower MSRP and may be another bet used.  I'd love to see how the Emotiva performs.  Outlaw was selling Onkyo because their processor wasn't done yet, do they now have one?  A friend of mine had one of their older models and it didn't hold up well.  He said Outlaw has great customer service but not much concellation if the unit isn't doing it's job.

Processors are generally more expensive because of better parts and quality which should yield better sonic performance.

Just another .02, I moved from solid state to tubes in a mixed HT/stereo system using tubes for the front L/R.  The tubes and solid state did not mix well.  To the point I couldn't tolerate it.  I immediately devised a way to have a separate two channel system and went with a 5 channel amp for HT.  I sold the 3-channel solid state and ended up with a Class V 5-channel.  It would be interesting to hear one of the Butler 5-channel tube amps but that seems like a expensive tube change when the time comes.

The Marantz is the best of the lower priced pre-pros by a very wide margin as far as 2 channel performance is concerned.  The one thing that people freak out about (rightly so depending on your situation) is that it doesn't have enough processing capability to do bitstream processing and do the audyssey multi-eq room correction at the same time.  If you aren't using the Audyssey, have your own eq for your sub, are ok with PCM audio, etc. then you're golden.  The Marantz definitely has some quirks.  No doubt about it.  But I tried everything under $5K I could get my hands on ($5K being the upper limit because I was trying to find something that a majority of potential customers could justify), and the Marantz was the best sounding unit for audio, imo.  I actually like it better than the Denon pre-pro if correction isn't being used.  The one thing that edges the Denon ahead is the pro calibration capability for the Denon.  The Denon's also got a much much much much better user interface.

Unfortunately, stand alone high end pre-pros are usually more expensive because of economies of scale.  R&D time and other fixed costs like licensing costs for a receiver is spread out over a much higher sales volume of units.  Yes, parts quality should and usually is higher in a stand alone pre-pro unit.  But there are a whole lot less pre-pros sold compared to the cheaper receivers.  In the case of small companies doing the manufacturing (i.e. not the Denon's or Onkyo's of the world offsetting things with their other business lines), just getting a manufacturing facility to make things on the scale they want is difficult.  Licensing costs are very high for the volume of units being produced.  Plus they need dedicated support resources because they are much more complicated beasts than an amplifier or 2 channel preamp and generate exponentially more questions and support requests from customers.  I used to represent a company that went back to making 2 channel only products and dropped their pre-pro from the lineup because they said the costs were just too much to absorb.  They said 80+% of their total support calls and warranty repair work (either valid issue or customer just sending it in because they didn't know what they were doing and thought the unit was broken) were because of the one pre-pro.   what usually ends up happening with pre-pros is that companies license the boards and construction from one manufacturer that supplies identical stuff to multiple manufacturers.  The manufacturer spreads out the licensing costs and R&D time onto larger volumes for multiple manufacturers to make it more palatable for the smaller volume manufacturing brands to be able to afford to do it.  Not great for innovation and the quality usually isn't commersurate with the rest of their products. 

I'm not sure what you are referring to with the cost of tube change in the Butler 5150 amp?  The tube used in that amp (a generic 6SL7) is run at ~5% of it's rated plate voltage.  It's barely turned on.  In fact, in order to make it look like it's even turned on, they drill the center pin of the base and put an LED in it to shine up into the glass envelope.  The tubes are rated for 100,000 hours of lifetime use.  Even if you leave the amp on 24/7/365, that's >13 years in between tube replacements.  I have a guy here in town that has had his amps left on almost non-stop since he bought the amps from me >6 years ago.  I think he's turned them off a couple times when he went out of the country on vacation for a few weeks.  But otherwise they're on and stay on.  Amps are still going strong today on original tubes.  When it comes time to replace the tube, it's just a generic tube, not some special NOS expensive piece.  BK mentioned to me a few years back that it's like a $25 replacement.  Don't quote me on that as times change and inflation may mean a higher cost now... but it's not an outrageous amount. 

I have got to have at least >100 people that have a 5150 and use a receiver as the pre-pro.  It has far and away been the most popular upgrade path over the years for customers.  They start with a surround sound system based on a receiver for cost reasons and then want to upgrade to something better.  They run into the problem of the big jump in price for pre-pros so the Butler amp makes a lot of sense once they hear it.  I've not heard a 5 channel amp under $6K I prefer for home theater sound.  It's absolutely perfect for the sound I like and for the type of gear and systems it's most commonly used in by my customers.  Now that the Marantz has been available, I've done a few of those upgrades as well. 

[zybar]

Interesting.  I believe I purchased the predecessor to this Denon, which is the receiver I'll be using in my living room.  I've never turned it on, though, because all this time my family room has been construction and I've not had reason to turn it on.  I'll look into the Denon.  Thanks for the help.

I use the Denon 3808 and like it. 

I can't say that I did extensive comparisons with other processors or that I am as picky for HT as I am for 2 channel.

George

[ctviggen]

I'll definitely consider the Denon.  It just seems odd to have 5-7 channels of amplification sitting there doing nothing.  If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have purchased the receiver I purchased (well over a year ago), and would've just waited until now to purchase one.  However, I thought I'd have my room done a long time ago.  And, now I want to use that receiver upstairs in the living room to enable me to get rid of a preamp and a five channel amp and to condense things.  Also, my family room plan went from five channels to seven channels, which I didn't plan on.  The room is so big that seven channels are appropriate.

[targa02]

Check out the refurbished NAD M15 at: http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/m15.asp Normally retails for around $2500-3000

[jermmd]

Now for something completely different...
How about a HTPC directly to your amps and projector?
You're new Dell Zino has analog outputs, doesn't it?
You use a Squeezebox for music so why even bother with a seperate processor. A PC has better video upscaling and is easier to navigate for all of your media needs. I don't think the Zino does HD audio though and I realize that's important to you.
I am seriously considering a PC to amp complete home theater solution.

Joe

[ctviggen]

That's not a bad idea.  The only detriment is the lack of inputs.  I'd need several HDMI inputs and perhaps component.  So, I'd still need some type of receiver/preamp/switching device.

The Zino has HDMI output and will supposedly output 5.1.  However, I have it attached to my TV, and a digital cable from the TV to my preamp (which doesn't have HDMI).  I only get two channels of sound, but this is all my upstairs system has anyway.  I assume that if I connect the HDMI out of the Zino to the HDMI input of a receiver, I'll get the 5.1.  I don't know that, though.

I'm disappointed in the Zino as a Bluray player.  Simply put, it will not play Blurays without a tremendous amount of stuttering.  I have to rip the Blurays to MKV files and play them (and still trying to determine how to play them).  I paid $100 for a Bluray drive.  I should've purchased a stand alone Bluray player.  The Zino does everything else well, though:  serves music, ripped DVDs, plays online TV, plays home videos, etc.