Insight 240? or 260? or 440?

mathgeek97 · « **on:** 6 Mar 2010, 08:06 pm »

So, I've got a great pair of Salk HT2-TLs, which are currently driven by an adequate, at best, home theater receiver. I've decided I'm definitely a 2-channel person, so it's time to feed my towers with something better. The new UltraValve amp looks great, but is not going into my house full of kids and the wife would rather not see tubes glowing. So, I'm looking at solid state amps.
The tentative plan is
Vision DAC -> T8+ preamp -> Insight amp.
A 240 double is $1087, which seems like a nice deal if there is nothing to be gained from the more expensive amps. I don't like to make my ears bleed, and I'm in a 14'x22'x8' room. The HT2-TL is rated at 87db sensitivity and a nominal impedance of 4 ohms. So, what, if anything, would I gain with the 260 or 440 over the 240?

Wayner · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 08:24 pm »

Others may disagree, but I think it's a mistake to base an amplifiers output needs on the current speakers you have. If you are like me, things change all the time and suddenly you may end up with a combination that is just not well balanced. I personally would go for the most power I could afford, capable of driving the lowest load speakers. High power amplifiers purpose is not to give the listener "ear bleeds", but rather, have the reserves to handle dynamic range with great speed and have sufficient "head room" to handle any kind of dynamic event. But then, that is just me, but I also own some smaller amps like the Ultravalve, a 170 and a 260. These amps are in my studio (11 x 14) and will only be hooked up to bookshelf speakers (because my roomsize and features make tower type speakers impossible). Perhaps a better consideration is the size of room you are going to use them in.

Wayner

mathgeek97 · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 08:43 pm »

Thanks for the input Wayner. I don't really plan on swapping out the speakers. Maybe in 20 years when all of the kids are out of college... Seriously, they are staying put for quite a while.
So, given that, wouldn't the insight Double 240 be more than enough power? or am I still missing something? For the speakers I have, do I gain something by going to the 260, which can handle a 2 ohm load? Frank's Web site says, "twice the current and thermal capacity of the Insight 240." What does that mean to how music is going to sound in my living room?

srb · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 09:10 pm »

I haven't seen an impedance graph of the HT2-TL's to know how much and at what frequencies they might dip below the 4 ohm 'nominal' specification.

However, keep in mind that your 4 ohm 'nominal' 87dB speakers will allow the amplifier to output 60%+ more power than it would to 8 ohm 'nominal' 87dB speakers.

My guess (and just a guess since I own neither) is that you might only notice a difference when playing very loudly in combination with very demanding source material.

Steve

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 09:25 pm »

I agree with Steve. I don't think that you will notice any difference except maybe when playing very loud dynamic material. With the double die option I doubt you will notice any difference. If you decide to move up to the 260 or 440, go with the 440. There is not enough of a difference between the 240 and 260. The 440 will have plenty of power in case you move up to more demanding speakers in the future.

WGH · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 09:35 pm »

It will be interesting to see what the final answer will be. A year ago Tone Depth brought over his 440H Double to compare to my 440. The speakers were the Von Schweikert VR2's with a 87.5 dB sensitivity and a low of 7 ohms. The differences between the two amps were subtle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64826.msg602612#msg602612

Unfortunately I have never compared a 240 to the 440 but with some of the new CD's I have been listening to like Miles_Gurtu the extra power of the 440 sure comes in handy, the deep bass stays extremely tight and controlled even with the Insight pre-amps volume set close to 12:00.

Wayne

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 09:41 pm »

Double 240 to save money; Double 260H, Double 440H, or Double Ultra 550 for the ultimate in versatility. I have a 440. If I were buying a 440 today, I would buy a Double 440H. I don't think that an amp can provide too much power and current, and these amps will handle very low load impedances.

Amplifier power and current (for inefficient or moderately inefficient speakers and/or low impedance speakers) is like money and bass traps. You can't have too much.

mathgeek97 · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 10:40 pm »

Quote from: oneinthepipe on 6 Mar 2010, 09:41 pm

Double 240 to save money; Double 260H, Double 440H, or Double Ultra 550 for the ultimate in versatility. I have a 440. If I were buying a 440 today, I would buy a Double 440H. I don't think that an amp can provide too much power and current, and these amps will handle very low load impedances.

Pipe,
Don't you have your HT2-TLs in a relatively small room? You don't find you 440 to be overkill?
BTW, a Double 440H really seems like overkill, and at $2,163 is starting to get into Ultra 550 territory.

WGH, thanks for the link. It's nice to know the 440 is so revealing.

Hrmm... so many choices.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 11:59 pm »

Quote from: mathgeek97 on 6 Mar 2010, 10:40 pm

Pipe,
Don't you have your HT2-TLs in a relatively small room? You don't find you 440 to be overkill?
BTW, a Double 440H really seems like overkill, and at $2,163 is starting to get into Ultra 550 territory.

WGH, thanks for the link. It's nice to know the 440 is so revealing.

Hrmm... so many choices.

My room is tiny; 205 square feet. The 440 isn't overkill because I don't turn the volume up too loud. On the other hand, the 440 has plenty of reserve power, and although I doubt, but don't know for certain, that there haven't been times when I might have pushed a 240. (If I didn't have as many broadband acoustic panels in my room, I would need to keep the amplifier output much lower.)

Yes, a Double 440H is much higher priced than a 240. For the money, a 240 is a great buy, and a Double 240 is even a greater buy, and would probably be all the amplifier that would ever be needed to drive a pair of HT2-TL.

Tone Depth · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 12:18 am »

I have nothing but praise for my Double 440H after over a year of use. The amp performance is most noticeable with the clarity of the mid and high frequencies, and with transients such as cymbals and guitar string overtones. I never hear anything breaking up. Then there's that great iron-fist control of the low frequencies.

When switching it out with another amp, I can hear the difference right away. After a short period of time, however, I find that I get used to the sound of the alternate amp. Maybe I'm easily pleased.

My listening is predominantly at rational levels, and not trying to stress any amp.

mathgeek97 · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 12:40 am »

Quote from: Tone Depth on 7 Mar 2010, 12:18 am

I have nothing but praise for my Double 440H after over a year of use. The amp performance is most noticeable with the clarity of the mid and high frequencies, and with transients such as cymbals and guitar string overtones. I never hear anything breaking up. Then there's that great iron-fist control of the low frequencies.

When switching it out with another amp, I can hear the difference right away. After a short period of time, however, I find that I get used to the sound of the alternate amp. Maybe I'm easily pleased.

My listening is predominantly at rational levels, and not trying to stress any amp.

Tone Depth,
Thanks for the Double 440H info. Good to know you hear a difference without cranking it up. I definitely am going for the best solid state sound I can get without spending just to spend.

Pipe,
Yeah, it's a hard choice between a great buy and killing upgrade-itis. I honestly think I'll never need to upgrade my speakers. Wouldn't it be great to think the same of an amp?

Anyhow, it looks like the concensus is to go for the bargain Double 240 or go all out and get the Double 440H. At least that gets it down to just two choices. Any objections?

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 03:07 am »

If you go for the 440, I don't see a need for the double die 440h unless you have a difficult speaker to drive like an Apogee! A straight up 440h will have all the power you will ever need. Even just the standard 440 will have more power than you will ever need!. If you have any concerns, give Frank a call. Frank has a pair of the HTR-3's and I have heard them driven by his 90wpc Integrated amp with no problems.

Larry

coke · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 03:19 am »

I'm using an ultra 550 on my HT2-TLs in a 14x11 room. I don't feel that it is "overkill" at all. I like dynamics, and extra power can make a very noticeable difference. I listen to probably 70/30 quiet to loud music. I normally don't need the power of the 550, but it's nice to have it when I want it.

WGH · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 03:39 am »

As I understand the specs, the "h" is for difficult loads (1 to 2 ohm loads and up) so spending the extra money may not be necessary. I believe you can get just a 440 Double (no "h") too.

Both Frank and Jim Salk would be the two people to talk to before you make a decision, the odds are good that when you call AVA to place your order Frank will answer the phone.

Wayne

mathgeek97 · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 03:46 am »

Thanks for all of the input guys.

gregmav · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 05:55 pm »

So, from what I am reading here, you can get a "double" 240 power amp? Can you get it in the "compact" chassis? The regular 240 is rated at 120 wpc, and is compatable with loads of 4 ohms and up. If you opt for the "double" version, do the specs change significantly, and if so which ones? The speakers I am wanting to drive with this amp are Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II's. They have a nominal impedence of 7 ohms with a minimum of 4 ohms. Is this amp a good fit for the Vandies, or should I consider one of Frank's "H" amps instead? I really like the comapct chassis of the 240.

vintagebob · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 06:12 pm »

Quote from: gregmav on 7 Mar 2010, 05:55 pm

So, from what I am reading here, you can get a "double" 240 power amp? Can you get it in the "compact" chassis? The regular 240 is rated at 120 wpc, and is compatable with loads of 4 ohms and up. If you opt for the "double" version, do the specs change significantly, and if so which ones? The speakers I am wanting to drive with this amp are Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II's. They have a nominal impedence of 7 ohms with a minimum of 4 ohms. Is this amp a good fit for the Vandies, or should I consider one of Frank's "H" amps instead? I really like the comapct chassis of the 240.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=63500.msg574855#msg574855

gregmav · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 06:29 pm »

Quote from: vintagebob on 7 Mar 2010, 06:12 pm

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=63500.msg574855#msg574855

Thanks. I appreciate the info, but it seems to talk mostly about the 550. My questions were concerning the 240.

vintagebob · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 07:53 pm »

Quote from: gregmav on 7 Mar 2010, 06:29 pm

Thanks. I appreciate the info, but it seems to talk mostly about the 550. My questions were concerning the 240.

My bad. You asked, "If you opt for the "double" version, do the specs change significantly, and if so which ones?". That is why I pointed you to that thread with Frank's explanation.

My Double 240/3 works great with my Salk HT2-TLs which are rated @ 87db/4 ohms.

http://www.salksound.com/speakers_veracity_ht2-tl_specs.shtml

srb · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 07:58 pm »

With the double die option on the 240 being only $88, I would have to have it.

Steve