Neo tweeter availability?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 10569 times.

S Clark

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7464
  • a riot is the language of the unheard- Dr. King
Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #20 on: 6 Mar 2010, 09:49 pm »
Lowtech,

Regarding the tweeters that Linkwitz compared, I have used the 27TFFC (although not the 25 version).  It is a very nice tweeter, as are most of the Seas tweeters in the Prestige line.  It resides in the kitchen in a system for the wife.  I have the Neo3pdr in my listening room.  I think one is clearly superior in clarity on piano, guitar, and vocals.

18 of your 56 post have something negative to say about the drivers used in GR-Research speakers.  There are several other manufacturers that make very fine products that have circles here at AC.  Perhaps you might find one that you like and post something positive there. 

Danny Richie

Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #21 on: 6 Mar 2010, 09:55 pm »
So that is how you are suppose to decide how good a tweeter is. Just pick a point below where they should be crossed over and send them a high powered tone burst to whatever level is needed to reach a distortion peak.... Yeah, that should do it. That tells me how it will sound.

lowtech

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #22 on: 6 Mar 2010, 10:45 pm »
S Clark - Good to see that someone is keeping tally.

My post was neither positive or negative.  You may choose to ignore it and SL's conclusions... if you wish. 

Danny - since you seem to think SL doesn't know what he's doing maybe you can test them yourself and share your measurements (and enlightenments) with us?

Danny Richie

Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #23 on: 6 Mar 2010, 11:27 pm »
Quote
since you seem to think SL doesn't know what he's doing...


No, that's not true at all. I think he is a brilliant man and a founding father of the industry. I have a lot of respect for him.

However, as loudspeaker designers we go about things very differently.

For instance, I am sure he has good reason for testing tweeters for high powered inputs at 1,500Hz as that is the crossover point that he uses in his Orion. He has limitations with that design that dictate he consider that factor. For one, the 1,500Hz range is about the limit of how high that metal cone woofer can be used if all of the cone break up is to be eliminated with the network.

In another application the Neo 3 is going to have clear advantages, especially if you start listening to them.

While he is very focused on distortion numbers, I tend to focus more on stored energy, spectral decay rates, in room responses, and subjective comparisons of drivers and components.

I am not knocking him, and he is not knocking me. There is no king of the mountain contest here. Our products will speak for themselves. And the people will speak with their wallets.

If you really insist on making such comparisons then I suggest that you make arrangements for some comparative listening like a local (local to me) Orion owner has done.

And by the way, the Neo tweeter used in all of our kits is a custom version, not sold separately, and not available from any other sources.

lowtech

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #24 on: 7 Mar 2010, 02:37 am »
I am sure he has good reason for testing tweeters for high powered inputs at 1,500Hz as that is the crossover point that he uses in his Orion. He has limitations with that design that dictate he consider that factor.

Right.  That's clearly stated in the link I posted.  BG does however note that the Neo3 can be used as low as 1KHz w/o the back installed.

In another application the Neo 3 is going to have clear advantages, especially if you start listening to them.

Maybe; maybe not.

I am not knocking him, and he is not knocking me.

Fair enough.  I guess it's just S Clark knocking me then.  Maybe he didn't read or undstand SL's results?
 
If you really insist on making such comparisons then I suggest that you make arrangements for some comparative listening like a local (local to me) Orion owner has done.

I don't insist on anything.  However, to make it a fair comparision, would you be using a suitable amplifier this time? (Not a Pioneer HT receiver, which is not suited for driving Orions.)

And by the way, the Neo tweeter used in all of our kits is a custom version, not sold separately, and not available from any other sources.

That's news to me.  Maybe that's why I like the set I have?  They were bought from you.

Davey

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1481
Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #25 on: 7 Mar 2010, 04:10 am »
Danny,

Stored energy, spectral decay rates, are also distortions.  In room responses are related to system design and not driver distortion performance (primarily.)  Subjective comparisons can't be quantified so are of little...objective...use.

SL's measurements were more a description of an ARTA burst testing methodology vice an actual comparison between two tweeters for possibly usage in one of his designs.

He explains himself in this DIYaudio thread:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/162364-sls-test-neo3-3.html#post2104715

Since the BG tweeter is rated to handle MUCH less power than the Seas tweeter (10 watts RMS vice 80 watts RMS) his results shouldn't be unexpected.  (It's clearly not as robust a tweeter as a more conventional driver.)

Also of note is the 5db sensitivity difference between the two drivers which would have reduced distortion levels of the Neo3 if the drive level had been reduced to provide the same SPL.
Even still the Neo3 driver would have produced more measurable distortion for the same SPL as the 25TFFC.  (This I've confirmed with my own testing.)

Anyways, the distortion (or the "distortion") may be responsible for some of the subjective preferences for this driver in various speaker designs.  "One man's distortion is another man's 'air'".......or something like that....I can't remember the exact quote.  :)

Cheers,

Dave.

JohnR

Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #26 on: 7 Mar 2010, 05:18 am »
More distortion measurements here - http://zaphaudio.com/nondomes/standard.html - looks pretty good to me ;)

Danny, would you use the standard or PDR version in an array?

jtwrace

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11424
  • www.theintellectualpeoplepodcast.com
    • TIPP YouTube Channel
Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #27 on: 7 Mar 2010, 05:21 am »
More distortion measurements here - http://zaphaudio.com/nondomes/standard.html - looks pretty good to me ;)

Danny, would you use the standard or PDR version in an array?

removed as per someones request.
« Last Edit: 8 Mar 2010, 01:08 am by jtwrace »

JohnR

Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #28 on: 7 Mar 2010, 06:06 am »
Measurements are always controversial... I don't think those measurements are definitive either... I sort of tried to indicate that with the wink ;) Hopefully this doesn't become one of these who can and who can't measure threads...  :peek:

I suppose I should have just said that I'm not perturbed by SL's measurements. Every driver has its limits. At that frequency and level the distortion products of the Neo3 are around 30dB down (each) - to me this indicates that the driver is reaching its limit. (Am I right in that?) I'm not going to be driving the tweeters that hard and low, or anything like it.

jtwrace

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11424
  • www.theintellectualpeoplepodcast.com
    • TIPP YouTube Channel
Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #29 on: 7 Mar 2010, 12:28 pm »
Measurements are always controversial... I don't think those measurements are definitive either... I sort of tried to indicate that with the wink ;) Hopefully this doesn't become one of these who can and who can't measure threads...  :peek:

I suppose I should have just said that I'm not perturbed by SL's measurements. Every driver has its limits. At that frequency and level the distortion products of the Neo3 are around 30dB down (each) - to me this indicates that the driver is reaching its limit. (Am I right in that?) I'm not going to be driving the tweeters that hard and low, or anything like it.

 :oops:

m-fine

Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #30 on: 7 Mar 2010, 02:54 pm »
What you can see from the tests is that the Neo3 performance starts to fall apart below 2khz when pushed hard.  This may be a limitation when it comes to retrofitting it into an existing design like the Orion, but for a speaker designed to use this driver, that is not a concern at all. 

Besides, a test of two tweeters at equal voltage may be easy but it is of limited use.  Since we use speakers at a desired SPL, the drivers should be compared on an equal SPL basis to understand the relative trade offs in practical usage.  I am pretty sure that if I want to hit 125 db at 5 meters I am not going to choose the Neo3 tweeter, but if I am looking to hit 100 db at 2 meters I might.  In either case I would be testing at the desired max SPL, not some arbitrary (pre-crossover) voltage number.   

Danny Richie

Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #31 on: 7 Mar 2010, 09:06 pm »
Quote
Fair enough.  I guess it's just S Clark knocking me then.  Maybe he didn't read or undstand SL's results?

SL's results have nothing to do with Scott Clark's comment. He is knocking you because in your own not so transparent way, you are being negative towards some of my products, while tooting the horn of another.

We all know that you are a moderator on the Orion users forum.

Quote
That's news to me.  Maybe that's why I like the set I have?  They were bought from you.

Sorry, but you bought yours prior to the custom OEM version being made available to me.

John,

I have used the standard units is a semi wave guided design with good results.



But the best off axis response is going to be with the pdr version.

The real tricks to keep in mind is that you only gain additional output (from a line of them) in the lower ranges where they all couple. In the top end, the output will basically be the same as a single unit.

So if you have a really long line of them and you want to use an equally long line of woofers then you have to keep in mind that the output of all the woofers will couple and give you much greater output then you could get with a single. And you have to match those over all output levels.

For LS-6's ad LS-9's I had to design a low sensitivity woofer to match the line of Neo's.

Quote
Yes they do.  I remember reading somewhere (Selah) that Rick doesn't like the Zaph tests.  Personally, I've never thought that he was off. 

Danny what are your thoughts?

I have discussed Zaph's measurements before. Distortion test have to really be taken with a grain of salt. In upper frequency ranges you can make some reasonable comparatives. However, measuring distortion levels in ranges below 2kHz, outside of an anechoic chamber, won't get you any meaningful information. Trying to measure something with a SPL level that is below the SPL levels of ambient room noise is a waste of time.


lowtech

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #32 on: 7 Mar 2010, 10:13 pm »
Quote from: Danny
He is knocking you because in your own not so transparent way, you are being negative towards some of my products, while tooting the horn of another.

You as S Clark arrived at this... by a link I posted that completely lacked any commentary???  The measurements and conclusions are those of SL, not me.  The only commentary that I've since provided is that I do like the sound of the tweeter...

Quote from: Danny
Sorry, but you bought yours prior to the custom OEM version being made available to me.

Curious why you felt the need to have a "custom OEM" version made.  Was it purely for product marketing differentiation or were you trying to overcome some sort of known issue with the standard unit (distortion, power handling, QC, etc.)? 

(FYI - The Fs of the units I bought from you were both way, way out of spec from what you stated them to be.  Maybe I should try the "custom OEM" version that you are now selling.



)

ebag4

Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #33 on: 7 Mar 2010, 10:37 pm »
You as S Clark arrived at this... by a link I posted that completely lacked any commentary???  The measurements and conclusions are those of SL, not me.  The only commentary that I've since provided is that I do like the sound of the tweeter...
 

)

Lowtech, you obviously have an agenda.  Speaking only for myself, your posts offer nothing and I only wish there was a way to view the forum with having to read your drivel.  I am a little surprised that an upstanding member of the audio community such as SL would want his name associated with someone who has nothing better to do than to cast slings and arrows at other upstanding members of the community.  Your thinly veiled antagonistic comments are not a benefit to me and I would venture to say that there are others on this site that feel the same.

This is the only post I will make addressing you directly, I have never made such a post in the past. 

Danny, if you feel this post is out of line please feel free to delete it.

Best,
Ed

Danny Richie

Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #34 on: 7 Mar 2010, 10:39 pm »
Quote
You as S Clark arrived at this... by a link I posted that completely lacked any commentary???  The measurements and conclusions are those of SL, not me.  The only commentary that I've since provided is that I do like the sound of the tweeter...

I think we may be forming a link regarding your most recent post and former posts where you claimed I was knocking off the Orion.

Quote
Curious why you felt the need to have a "custom OEM" version made.  Was it purely for product marketing differentiation or were you trying to overcome some sort of known issue with the standard unit (distortion, power handling, QC, etc.)?
 

Subjectively, they sound better used with an open back. They are more transparent, more natural sounding, less restrained, and the roll off in the lower region is smoother. By smoother I mean that it has a nice gradual roll off instead of being forced flat longer then having a steeper fall.

The Fs is considerably lowered as well.

The stock back cup loaded the diaphragm and had a slightly adverse sonic effect in the lower ranges compared to the newer deep back cup version. This newer versions deep back cup simulates the same behavior that it has in free air. It doesn't load the diaphragm.

They are not available for sale individually though. They are only available in the kits that we offer.

See pick of old verses new:


lowtech

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #35 on: 7 Mar 2010, 11:02 pm »
Quote from: Danny
I think we may be forming a link regarding your most recent post and former posts where you claimed I was knocking off the Orion.
 
Oh, I see.

Quote from: Danny
This newer versions deep back cup simulates the same behavior that it has in free air. It doesn't load the diaphragm.

They are not available for sale individually though. They are only available in the kits that we offer.

See pick of old verses new:

The ones you sold me were the "deep back" version (please correct me if I'm wrong). 

The impedance plot from my prior post is from what you see pictured below.  The standard Neo3 PDR version that I measured had a Fs of 1995Hz.



Danny Richie

Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #36 on: 7 Mar 2010, 11:26 pm »
Looking at my UPS log, it looks like you got those on 6-23-08. That was the first month that I had them. Lucky you. Soon after I agreed with BG to not sell them if not used in a product.

I don't know what to tell you about your impedance measurements. I don't measure any of them anywhere near that high. I just measured one with an open back and it was at 569Hz.

lowtech

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #37 on: 7 Mar 2010, 11:34 pm »
Looking at my UPS log, it looks like you got those on 6-23-08. That was the first month that I had them. Lucky you. Soon after I agreed with BG to not sell them if not used in a product.

I don't know what to tell you about your impedance measurements. I don't measure any of them anywhere near that high. I just measured one with an open back and it was at 569Hz.

Yeah, lucky me.  Both of mine measured the same back on 06-27-08.  No problem with my measurement equipment - all the other drivers I've measured pretty much agree with manufacturer specs or what others' have measured. 

These aren't open back; they're "deep back".  How do your "deep back" ones measure?

Care to replace my set for some that measure to your specs?

JohnR

Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #38 on: 7 Mar 2010, 11:38 pm »
I have used the standard units is a semi wave guided design with good results.



Danny, what's the reason for the spacing of the tweeters - as opposed to having them right on top of each other?

Danny Richie

Re: Neo tweeter availability?
« Reply #39 on: 7 Mar 2010, 11:47 pm »
Quote
Care to replace my set for some that measure to your specs?

If they are out of spec then send them back to me and I'll replace them.

John, the frames are actually edge to edge. They mount from the back side in that design so only the playing surface is seen.